71: Licensing Do's & Don'ts: 3 Specific Strategies from Meredith Heron

71: Exploring Color and Creativity: 3 Specific Strategies from Meredith Heron

In this episode of the McClain Method Podcast, host John McClain speaks with Canadian design powerhouse Meredith Heron. They discuss the importance of dealing with decision-makers, aligning values in business relationships, diversifying ventures, and staying true to passion and creativity. 

Meredith shares insights from her journey from working at Home Depot to becoming a TV host and launching a bespoke rug collection. Meredith emphasizes the significance of storytelling, authenticity, and bespoke designing in interior design. Learn about her approach to building lasting client relationships, the intricacies of launching a product line, and overcoming business challenges. 

This episode also delves into finding inspiration from various sources like travel and the importance of working with like-minded people. Get ready to be inspired by this engaging conversation full of practical advice and entertaining anecdotes.

00:00 Introduction and Aligning Your Views

00:35 Welcome to the McClain Method Podcast

01:38 Interview with Meredith Herron Begins

03:13 Meredith's Journey to Interior Design

09:55 Launching a Product Line and Overcoming Challenges

18:22 The Importance of Alignment and Values

22:57 The Art and Craft of Hand-Knotted Rugs

30:18 Marketing and PR Strategies

30:40 Early Adoption of Social Media

31:09 Transition to High-End Clientele

32:17 The Importance of Storytelling in Design

33:17 Overcoming Financial Fear and Scarcity

35:26 Discovering and Honing a Superpower

37:38 Navigating Client Relationships

43:41 Inspiration and Creative Process

50:53 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

More About Meredith Heron:

Website: https://www.meredithheron.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meredithheron/?hl=en

Transcript

Make sure your business views are aligned. Make sure the people that you are dealing with are the decision makers, and if not, find out who the decision makers are and find out what they value and you will turn out absolute crap. That you don't believe in, you don't value. And your time, your effort, and who you are as a creative will not be nurtured in any way.
And you won't make money. You will not make money. So diversifying your endeavors could possibly open you up to make more money, but if you're not passionate about it, if it's not joy for you to go into and do who you are as a creative will not be nurtured. 
Hey all, you're listening to the McClain Method Podcast, episode number 71.
Welcome to the McClain Method, the podcast. For interior designers who are ready to stop hiding and start shining. I'm your host John McClain designer, business mentor, author, and your branding bestie. This is not about paint colors or pendant lighting. It's about building a business that's both visible [00:01:00] and profitable inside and out.
From marketing and messaging to mindset systems and visibility. We cover the front stage and the backstage of your design business because you are brilliant. Deserves the spotlight and your business deserves to run like a dream behind the scenes. So if you're ready to be seen, get recognized, and get booked, it's time to let it shine.
Welcome to the McClain Method. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the McClain Method Podcast. I am your host, John McClain, and I'm so happy to have you here. All righty, buckle up friends. Today's episode is a great one. I am talking with Canadian Design Powerhouse Meredith Heron, and this one is Equal Parts Truth Bombs.
Business strategy and kind of standup comedy. She's a hoot from being called the Paint Whisperer at Home Depot to landing her own HGTV show to launching a stunning hand nodded rug collection. Meredith's journey is anything but typical. She is unapologetically [00:02:00] herself and in this episode I. She brings her full truth to the mic.
We are going to talk about what it really takes to launch a product line and how to avoid getting scammed, juicy stuff, right? Also, we're going to discuss why alignment is everything. Y'all know I preached this and so does Meredith, and she's going to talk about alignment with clients, with collaborators, and with yourself.
And then lastly, we're going to discuss how storytelling and authenticity aren't just nice to haves in your business. They're the secret. Sauce, you're going to laugh, you're going to gasp, and most of all, you're going to walk away rethinking how you design your business. So a little bit about Meredith.
Meredith Heron is a Toronto based designer and television host whose work is an extensive conversation with color, form, pattern, and texture, elements of fashion, architecture, and interior design blend seamlessly in Meredith's classic reinterpreted style. All righty. There is a bit about Meredith. So sit back, relax, and enjoy this.
Fabulously [00:03:00] fun conversation with Meredith Heron. Hey Meredith. Welcome to the McClain Method Podcast. 
Hello, John. 
You know what? I know just from speaking with you just briefly before we started, you're going to brighten everyone's day with our topic today, so I'm super excited. Tell everyone about yourself in your own words and how you became an interior designer.
Well, my name is Meredith Heron. I'm based in Toronto, Canada. I was born just outside of the city. I actually went to school initially to become a teacher. And I did that. I started teaching at the age of 23. I taught grade one for two years, grade three for five years, pretty much day two of year two. I was like, no, no, I am not a lifer.
I cannot do this for 35 years. I hate routine. So I started thinking like, what am I gonna do? I had student loans. I was completely on my own, so I decided to get a part-time job. Worked in a bookstore one year, and then I bought a house and I was really into decorating and I [00:04:00] watched all these little design shows.
I remember loved her and applied to work at Home Depot and they put me in the paint department and I'm like, I'm pretty good with color. Like I've got, I've got some skills. And pretty soon they showed me how to make paint and how to follow the formulas. And I quickly realized that I actually didn't need the formulas.
I could just. Do it myself and I don't know how I just could do it myself. And what happens when that, if you have that kind of skill, contractors find out and they call you a paint whisperer and they bring you all of their broken paint formulas and get you to fix it. And so it would, I would come in and there would be lineups and then they finally had a a row where they would say, if you're here for the redhead, you gotta go down here.
And homeowners. And people started to realize that. I got, I was a little controversial, like sometimes it was in the neighborhood was very Chinese. And if you know anything about Feng shui and paint colors and Chinese customers, they really love gold and they really love rep. [00:05:00] And this one Chinese contractor came to me and he wanted me to make a five gallon pale of, I called it serial killer yellow.
Like I, it was awful. It was worse than school buses. And I'm like, are you sure you wanna paint the entire house this color? He. No, no, you're going to drive people crazy, like there's gonna be a murder on somebody's hands because you've painted two stories. School bus yellow. He comes back a day later and fix it, please.
It's so bad. I'm in with you guys. And then people started asking me to come to their homes and I might have taken their names on the side and did some things I wasn't supposed to do. And while all that was happening, I'm teaching full time and I noticed the college. Pretty close to my house. Had a continuing education program for interior design that I could do in the evenings.
I thought, you know what? I'll take the color theory course if it's like scrapbooking for board house wives, like I will drop it. And it was, I did two degrees at once when I was doing my teaching. I did a concurrent program, and this was harder than that. So then the first three weeks, the director of [00:06:00] the program took me aside and said, look, we don't tell this to everybody, but you need to quit your job and you need to do this.
And we will do whatever we can do to help you succeed. About a year and a half later, two years later, I was starting to take clients on the side. I was still finishing up these evening courses and I called to book a nightclub. This is gonna date me, but there was no such thing as email. You had to like fax your name.
Into the guest list, and so I was calling to get the fax number and I said, oh, I'm a designer and I have, I'm taking some of my trades out for an evening, and they're like, Hey, we're looking to redo the club. Could you come and talk to us? I was like, sure, no problem. I'm standing in my classroom at last recess and I have booked this.
I said, yes. And I'm a jump and the net will appear kind of person it turns out. So I got the job and I had to renovate it in April. They were closing for two weeks for lick a license infraction, and I got enough work from that that I quit my job in July. Then fast forward, but I. Four or five months, I agreed to do a [00:07:00] charity auction event, like a bachelorette.
I put an A, a package together, redo one room in your home. And long story short, there was a celebrity bidding on it and a mystery person bidding on it. The mystery person won it turned out to be my mother. She knew the value of the whole thing. I was like, I cannot believe you did this. I could have been with like the celebrity and, ugh.
Anyway, there was a casting agent. In the audience who then reached out through a contemporary and said, Hey, would you be interested in doing a screen test for HGTV? We're casting new shows. I said, yes. Uh, went and did the screen test. Pretty much knew I had it in the bag halfway through the screen test, 'cause the producer was practically jumping up and down.
And I landed my first HGTV show, which was in Canada. We called it Love By Design in the US it was called Date With Design. From there, HGTV asked if I could become an approved host. Then they would send my name out to different production companies who were looking for hosts. I got two auditions and I got [00:08:00] both gigs.
One, I was the host of a show called Design Match, which was on fine living. I. The Scripps Network in the US it was on the Wealth Channel. It's been on so many things. And then Restaurant Makeover, which I did five Seasons of, which was the number one show on Food Network. Anyway, small little story about how I got started, and that was Lord I, my business is, I've been a design, I have a design company for.
27 years now. This was all about 22 years ago that this happened. 
Wow. 
And then I met my husband a year after I quit teaching, and he was an industrial designer and he's like, I'm hitching my wagon to your horse once week. Got a relationship solid and we've been business partners ever since. Oh 
my gosh. So interesting.
I think your life is just full of these like kismet moments of this will lead to that and this will lead to that. But who would've thought, you know, helping someone with their paint at at Home Depot would turn into a career as a designer and then also a television career. And then also I. Licensing [00:09:00] deals, which we're going to get into.
So you have really followed the path that a lot of people would aspire to take. And the thing that I always find with everyone that I interview, and you're no exception, is that it comes from a passion. It comes from inside. There's a gnawing inside of you that you just cannot get rid of. And you're like, yes, I will do this one way or the other.
And then it leads to other things. So when you truly find your passion, it will kind of Sure pull you up that pathway. But you know, the other thing that I think is so interesting is that you've had this great. Interior design career with luxury clients and fabulous projects. And if anyone listening has not been to your website, I implore them to do so.
It's just stunning work color. Thank you. Everywhere. It's just so beautifully put together. Thank you all of Yeah, I love it. I truly do. And if I didn't, I wouldn't say it. I would just say, oh, okay. 
We're used to making those faces. When a client comes in with a suggestion, you're like, oh yeah, 
Rightm from Georgia.
It's a bless your heart kind of a situation. Yeah, yeah. But how did you, so you had this TV career design career. It sounds wonderful. How did you parlay that into launching a bespoke product line? Because [00:10:00] that's something that, again, a lot of people aspire to do and want to do. And then I, I do wanna flip back to the TV stuff a little bit later because I think that's something else that people will find interesting.
But before we go into that, tell me about how you came across the idea or the opportunity opened itself up to you to start a rug collection. Because once again, your rugs are gorgeous as well, and I think that they look like truly works of art. And I know that's something that you value too, but tell me how that all started.
Well, I think really necessity is the mother of invention and from the moment I agreed to take on nightclub while I was a school teacher, I learned very quickly that designing specific items, it's a great way to make a profit, I should say, of that nightclub job. I was the only person who got paid in full.
I showed up on Monday. Afternoons. I knew they had cash on the weekend and they paid me. I was tenacious and fearless. I was making things, I was designing light fixtures for that club. I designed banquettes. I designed upholstered walls. So, you know, trying to do things that just wasn't, I could go shop. [00:11:00] And I think that's really, really, really important for aspiring designers and people who are just getting started.
You are a shopper. You're not a designer. It's decorating. The design comes from actually having to build things out and figure out how that chair is going to relate and how that element is going to relate. And you can start small, you know, even just customizing and working with like a wallpaper company that you can customize a design, change the scale, change the colors, but that's.
Designing, that's you're using somebody else's template. You are working with people in collaboration so that you're not trying to just figure it all out and reinvent the wheel, but those are really. The stepping stones to doing full fledged incredible design work like rugs. And so that's what happened.
I'd started with furniture and upholstery, moved into wallpaper and trying to customize, you know, websites like Spoonflower. Start designing your own fabrics. Like sometimes I couldn't find something that I wanted. I'd go on there and I'd start [00:12:00] to upload some images, some vectors, and you know, away we'd make some wallpaper from fabric.
I have hand painted 11 yards of silk, dup silk to do drapery for a client's project. I've hand blocked with Indian wood dyes, Roman blind fabrics. Because I couldn't find what I wanted. So those sorts of things along the way, I've always been very creative. I've always been quite handy. I used to full finish, I can full finish anything.
So I understand how all that process works. And so with rugs, it just sort of was the next step where I could not. Find rugs that I want. I love color. Again, being a redhead, I look good in particular colors and I like to design with those colors a lot of the time. But they're very flattering. Jewel tones.
Everybody looks good in a jewel to, and I love spaces that people look good in. So you know, that's why I don't have a lot of yellow in my house, like mustard. I don't decorate with condiments either. No, yellow, red, green, ugh. Worst combination. So rugs, you know, in the late nineties into the early [00:13:00] aughts, there they were.
Red, it's a lot of red and gold and green. And then they were like, Ooh, we've got this new palette called dope and Canada loves, loves to decorate around Slush, come mid-March. I don't know why they love white, gray, brown, black as much as they do. It's just terrible. So I just couldn't find what I wanted. So I, I kind of started to dabble.
And I had met someone who'd actually originally tried to hire us to do some design work through restaurant because of Restaurant Makeover. He was a third generation rug maker or rug purveyor. They gave me entree into the world of rug design, and at the time appeared to be very transparent about, it's full of snakes, liars, thieves, cheats.
So. Just know that that's what's gonna happen and, and don't be doe-eyed and trusting. And I'm like, come on. Like, all right, I'm redhead. I'm also Scottish, so, and Danish, so my Viking people conquered my Scottish people. [00:14:00] I'm good, I'm good. But I did learn, start to learn. And then there was some, you know, miscues, we tried a few things there, some miscommunications.
Then we kind of thought we got all, all on the same page and kind of. Bought into doing this system. If you have set designs and you purchase this many square feet, you can get better pricing. Like it makes sense. Like it, it's just like when you're opening a, an account with a furniture maker in North Carolina, like, this is the opening order.
This is what you have to. Spend every year. You'll get samples, we'll get a wrap. Like, okay, so this makes sense. And then suddenly, like all of our rugs weren't coming in and you know, we just launched and all of a sudden it was like, oh, you're going to pay me more money. And there was a whole shakedown that happened.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, that's my opinion. It was a shakedown. I felt shooken down. I don't know. But anyway, we had a parting in the ways and. I really didn't know what to do. I had just launched this rug company. I had stock, but I couldn't access the stock. It was kind [00:15:00] of being kept from me. Then all of a sudden I was told I could come and get it one day, and I took it.
And fortunately, my husband had traveled to India and Nepal and had met with some of the people who were making the rugs on our behalf. And one of those people was also. Not having a positive experience with this middle person and reached out to us directly. And that's really how we kind of went, oh wait a minute.
We did have a middle person here who was messing everything up and now we are very much direct, so I. Family that makes the rugs and owns the company that makes the rugs. Meredith Aaron Design, there's nobody in between. Fortunately, the person that we'd always worked with through the middle person who'd made a lot of rugs with us over 10 years, she found herself without employment and she came to work for us.
So it's really great that the person I've always worked with in terms of understanding construction and fibers and different finishing techniques and things like that came to work for us. And [00:16:00] now we have over 200 designs in our catalog and we're about to redo our entire website. I think we're gonna go with more of a trade focus.
We thought that people would just go and buy rugs online. I think up to a thousand dollars, maybe that's the case. But hand knotted rugs that have a value of, say, between 3000 and 15,000. People want to have a designer help them or they wanna see, touch, feel. And so I think that's where we're just sort of have looked at it.
We've studied it, we've tried it. And I think switching to more major order, working with the trade is a better way forward for us because we're working with designers, that's who's calling us unless they're. My imaginary friends on social media, which there have been several who have reached out and bought a rug.
And we sold a rug yesterday to someone that I like, I hang out with on Instagram we've never met, but we, you know, shoot the shit all the time and send photos back and forth and you know, I'm also her emotional support Canadian and this trying [00:17:00] time. 
So, 
yeah, so like that, that's kind of how it all happened.
And we put our rugs into our projects. That was always sort of the impetus. But now we've been sort of designing for designers too. I've had a couple designers bring us a design and you know, I say, how married are you to like this absolute iteration? Or would you want us to give you some input onto some things that maybe you should consider?
Mm-hmm. Um, I find that most people are open. To that they would like that and our expertise. Mm-hmm. And, you know, showing how we could just add a little bit of a difference or the color that the palms that they pick isn't lining up with what they'd hoped. And I'm like, yeah, okay, well that's 'cause you thought that was blue, but it's really gray and this is the blue you're after.
Yeah. They bring that in. I love working with another designer, especially in a style that I don't do. To achieve something. 'cause it's like, that's super fun. 
Well, okay. Yes, the beautiful part of that. I hear, I also, I mean, I wanna pick this apart because I just, I Sure there was, there was a lot in there. I love on [00:18:00] a pretty note.
I never, I'm not a one sentence person. 
No, no, no. I mean that there was a lot of. Story in there that I want people to hear. Mm-hmm. So I heard that you, you know, you saw the need for rugs and projects and you love that and you wanted to find a way to do that. So tell me and everyone listening, if you could, hindsight's 2020, go back and look at that first opportunity situation offer that you had.
What do you think you did incorrectly or what red flags were there that you were just maybe, maybe you were doey and just excited about the process, or, I don't know, you tell me. So tell me what you see looking now, looking back on that and like, oh, Meredith, you should not have done X, Y, and Z. 
Well, see the thing was is I saw the red flags husband, ah, who was all hoodwinked.
And Smirch and it was just became his friend and his buddy. No, I saw the writing on the wall. I did as much as I could do for control, but you know, I also think of the relative, like what I had to pay as a startup. Honestly, I've been doing this a long time now, so it wasn't like I lost my shirt, 
but time is money too.
Let's be honest. 
Time is money [00:19:00] too, but you know what, honestly. So when I, I, I had a licensing agreement with a fabric company, and that was the biggest time suck for not very much return. Make sure your business views are aligned. Make sure the people that you are dealing with are the decision makers, and if not, find out who the decision makers are and find out what they value.
I 
love that. I preach that all the time. It's not 
worth it, and you will turn out. Absolute crap that you don't believe in, you don't value, and your time, your effort and who you are as a creative will not be nurtured in any way. And you won't make money. You will not make money. Um, so diversifying your endeavors could possibly open you up to make more money, but if you're not passionate about it, if it's not joy for you to go into and do, I mean, there'll always be some headaches along the way, but like when I design a rug, it's like visceral, like I am.
Like, I'm so proud of this rug. I was just asked, I did a custom mosaic with a lovely new ravina out of California [00:20:00] and they asked me to participate in the thing we're doing, and they asked me about, you know, what do you love about when you see the mosaic? You know? And I'm like, Ugh. Like when it's done so well, you know, I look at it and go.
I'm a fucking genius, you know? And that's usually halfway through the installation. I'm like, oh, this is so good. Other times I've had someone where I'm like, this is a really beautiful tile. It's really wonderful. But when I've designed it and I've had a say in the experience of it, it's just so much better.
And that's the way rugs are for us. But 
did you have anything in the agreement? Was there an agreement that you had with this first? 
Oh, there was agreements. Like, what are you gonna do, Sue? 
Okay. 
Do you know how long it's gonna take to get to into a court case? 
But did you feel confident in the contract that you had?
Was the contract solid or was it just the fact that they didn't follow? What can't, you can't get 
blood from a stone. 
Mm-hmm. 
You know, and then you have to look at is it worth litigating? So you can have as much, your contract can be the most solid thing ever, but if the person you're suing has no money [00:21:00] or in business, they just write open another license number company over here, and then they just switch everything from there to there.
And then like you're gonna have to like. How are you gonna go after it? It's not really like how good is it gonna be, you know, unless you've got money put away in escrow or you know. And in hindsight, I might have done something a little bit different with the deposits that were going in, but it was so bad that we paid all this money and then this person turned around to the makers in India and said she never paid.
Mm. And 
so when we got together, we showed our bank statements and said, this is all the payments that we've made. And it showed that we were. Legitimate, trustworthy business people and that was why they were happy to forge a new relationship with just us directly. 
Mm-hmm. 
Um, but yeah. And then we've gone there now and we took our son with us to India and we spent time with all of the family and I.
All the kids getting together. And I think that goes back to aligning. Yeah, we, we are good people and they're good people. And when you can sit down to the table and all the [00:22:00] families there, like all the women, so Layla who works with us with the rugs, we took her to India with us and the women presented Layla and I with all sorts of ss and they measured my son and my husband and they had Kurts made.
On the spot, like they were ready in like two hours. And that's just such a lovely way to be welcomed in. And I think I would like to do business with people like that. Yeah, I don't appreciate this. I don't like this. Why is this happening? Like that still has to happen. But as far as going back and doing anything differently, I don't know if I could have, I try to.
Accepted. Like I learned a lot. 
Yeah. 
I won't make that mistake again, nor Will my husband. And it, there was so many benefits that came from it. Right. You know, I don't know if I would've ever got to go and spend time the way I did and then take my son and show him India. My husband lived in India when he was a little boy for five years.
So that was also really great to go and see places that he remembered from when he 
was 
little. Mm-hmm. And so I think that's part of that story. Yeah. Thing about, what I love [00:23:00] about hand knotted rugs is that when a designer commissions anything that is made by someone else's hand, there's an energy force.
This is very woowoo. There's an energy force that goes into that project. 
Mm-hmm. 
And you don't know that it's happened, like you don't understand. But somebody has. Put creativity and their energy and their knowledge and their heart into making that. And then that comes to your home and it enrichens and it, it tells a deeper story.
And I knew that there was a power in that. When I went to India and I had a bunch of rug pictures of installations that we had done. And we ended up in this one weaving hut. And they were explaining to me that these are the guys who did the big rugs. And they're like, oh. Which I'm like, which rugs? And they said, oh, Anini.
And so I took out my phone and I pulled up the house and I showed them the rug in the house. Wow. And he was pounding his chest going, I made that. So I made that. And you know, that's one I, you know, that's really amazing. And so [00:24:00] the people who have that rug, maybe not, they don't know that that energy is out there.
I know that somebody's very proud of the work that they did, and they put that care, and I try to tell that to people who are like on the fence about like, should I invest in these rugs? And I'm like, look, somebody's making this by hand. We're keeping a craft alive. 
Mm-hmm. You 
know, it's not being taken over by machines.
It's not being made using terrible products and terrible things for the environment. 
Yeah. The synergy is what I'm hearing from you from the beginning to the end is. Critical, and I'm the same way. I preach values all the time. I think that even with interior design clients, I want us as designers to make sure that we have alignment and values and ethics and morals and all the things with our, with our clients too.
Even down Meredith, I think too, like the handyman, the plumber. Anybody that's working with you on behalf of you with a client and any way or any product at all should be aligned with you in some way. I know you're not gonna find the perfect, but. Person to do that. But there's always alignments in the big things.
And I think that, I call it the golden thread of [00:25:00] values that kind of weaves its way through your life. And I think that golden thread should also weave its way into the people that you work with. And I think the thing that a lot of people do get wrapped up in, probably when they're thinking of starting a line or wanting to line or whatever is like.
Oh, I just wanna see that beautiful product designed. But behind that is a whole business system that has to run as well, and to work with those people closely, which you do when you are in a licensing situation. You do have to work with 'em closely. You do need to align in this. I think that's a huge lesson for people to really take home in their businesses in all aspects.
But the beautiful thing for you is that it turned itself around and now you have the collection that you have. My question to you is, were there any designs that you designed. Designed in the beginning that you had to leave with the former company, or were you able to take those with you? 
No, and that was the thing, right?
It was an agreement to provide the product. 
Mm-hmm. 
And they were 
going to, did they warehouse it for us as well? I 
see. 
That was it because I'd already had that experience with, you know, my name being put on a collection that. I curated it, you know, [00:26:00] I did help in some of the designs. There's a famous design that it all the, this is another little lesson for you.
You'll be doing a fabric. So I have a vintage ocelot coat. It's amazing. And I went down to the weavers who were making our collection at the time for fabrics. If we photocopied it, I like got on the photocopier. I have a photo of me in the coat on the photocopier, and they. As a organization, put together a contest between different textile designers to see who can come up with a pattern that I like the best, that resembled my coat the most.
The pattern came out, we could decide, yeah, that's the winner. We love it. It's like the showpiece of the collection. Then I found out that the manufacturer of it could modify it in like five degrees, and they came up with a separate version of it and they sold it all in huge, big bolts to all the furniture manufacturers, and I could see.
My coach that I got no money for because they made five changes to the design and the colors, and [00:27:00] there it was on everybody's furniture at market and there's nothing I could do about it. Nothing. 
Yeah. They 
also had certain like colorways of certain, like I had a fabric and then there was other colorways and then I'd see it out in like a slightly different colorway and then all of a sudden it was like, oh, there's some pillows at home goods.
Yeah. Like 
you have no control over it. There's zero and it was just a really, for me, that was just a heartbreaking situation. I also learned that they had no marketing budget for the collection. So you know, they decided what you could do was a very short spurt, but like that was it. And they're like, I wonder why the sales aren't great.
You're like. What? 
That's a B in my bonnet too, by the way. When you worked with someone and they don't have a good marketing plan or even a PR firm or anybody helping 'em, or it's like you can design the most beautiful product, but if no one takes it and puts it on the market to the world, then how are they even going to know about it?
Exactly. So these are the things that I learned at the time, and when we were talking about doing the drugs, [00:28:00] I would just, there was no way I was going to give them my name or anything. I was handling all of that. And so that was much better 
with the new collection. With the new collection, 
yeah, because it's, it's my company, it's my business.
So that's another lesson learned too. So you kind of took the bull by the horns and you're like, Nope, I want to take care of this. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna put my name on it. If I'm gonna put my name on it. I want to have something to stand on. And to do that, you're in control of it. So basically now you have manufacturers who manufacture for you, but you're handling the business side of everything.
Everything. Yep. 
Bravo. Yeah. Bravo. 
Yeah, 
that is good. And I think that's something that's probably more foreign to people. I think that they can even do that kind of a aspect of this sort of product deal. It's a lot of work. Yeah, it 
is a lot of work. Trial and error. Seeing what works for you, what doesn't work for you.
We had a, a really big publication, can we please, can you courier us your rugs overnight Them we're, we wanna feature them, we, but we wanna shoot them ourselves. And I did all that and then I didn't [00:29:00] hear anything. And then they. Said, oh, we didn't use them and can you get them picked up? And I'm like, so I just spent like thousands of dollars.
And you didn't even use them? Yeah. 
I used to have a product line and we would end up in like certain television shows or movies because they wanted it. But that burned when I first did that as well. So after that first time, I was like, you're gonna pay for packaging, you're going to pay for shipping, you're gonna pay for repackaging, and then you're gonna send it back to me.
And they're like, okay, fine. So once you get into the routine of that, totally, it can work for publicity and to get your name out there, CE 
Olson, Candace Olson's television show, which was shot in Toronto when I was shooting tv. They would borrow things from my store all the time. A couple of months, a year would go by and the phone would ring in the store.
I get this lovely, hi, this is Cindy from Tennessee. I'm in the hair salon and I just saw this amazing thing from Candace Olson's project and can we, can I buy it? It was this clock. It was a red jala clock from Left Bank, and I kid you not, I [00:30:00] started to stock it because I had so many Cindy's from Tennessee call me and I was really good at shipping it.
I finally worked out with left bank. I'm like, can we just keep these in your warehouse and then I will just drop ship them because clearly I'm a. Conduit for these clockss. Hilarious. Something like that. That's, but I love God bless Can Zen show? 
Exactly. So speaking of marketing and PR and getting the word out, what do you do now for, for both sides of your business?
So you still practice design, that's your true love and your passion. And now you have your beautiful rug line as well. How do you get your name out there? Because marketing to me is always very fascinating. Some people do totally different things than other people that work for other people that don't work.
So tell me what you do. I'm just always interested to hear. 
So I was an early adopter to social media. Um, I used to get hired from Twitter, and then I did get some, you know, with some of those projects way back when I had them publish in magazines and I got known for color. People got to, to know me for that and I got, I started doing work everywhere but Toronto.
I don't work a [00:31:00] lot in Toronto. I've worked, I've worked a lot for the Americans. I work with a lot with Canadians across the country and Canadians who have moved or have properties in the States. So yeah, I think it's still, social media is the big one, but you know, now there's a lot of voices competing and I have a very expensive look and feel to my portfolio work.
So the inquiries that I used to get, I don't get anymore. I don't get the tire kickers and mostly referral based. And I have clients who really, they, they love to design like a sport. Like they're like, let's buy another house. I'm like, okay. Yeah. 
I love those people. 
Um, love them. And so that's kind of how it is.
We are working with a publicist now with the rugs. Like the rugs are the focus. 
Yeah. 
But the problem is you can't really separate me from the rug. Yeah. It's one of the same. And 
obviously you're using your own rugs. In your own projects, I'm assuming, 
duh, duh. Yeah. 
Right. Yeah. And then that gets you nice photography to use for I do all my 
own [00:32:00] photography.
No way. 
My husband and I do all our own photography. 
Oh, okay. I was just about to applaud you on your photography because I looked at your website and I'm like, oh, she spent a good chunk on photography because 
not at all spent. Zero. Oh my goodness. That plane and go. 
Usually poo poo designers doing their own photography, but you're doing it fabulously, so keep up the good word.
Yeah, so 
it's because I'm a storyteller, 
Uhhuh, 
and this is going back to like me working at Home Depot. I got skills. You just don't want me doing accounting, keep me away from spreadsheets. 
Same. 
So I love it. I also do my own editing because I'm super. This is when I'm a full Virgo. I'm born on the first day of Virgo.
I'm really a Leo, but there's like weird Virgo tendencies. I 
hear the storytelling aspect of everything that you do, and actually I, I'm a big proponent of that. I think that is the way that we can win clients into our. Businesses and just really tell the story of yourself. Have you honed that over the years or has it always been something that you've had?
Because a lot of designers in particular, are very, [00:33:00] very good interior designers or landscape designers or whatever type of designers, but they just can't seem to get their story together to tell the narrative of their passion and their life and how this is going to affect that client. So number one, have you always had it?
And number two, how have you honed it to where it is now to where it helps your business? 
So, yeah, I've always had it, but it was always blocked by fear. So I am, I've had to basically financially support myself since my teens, and I've had a lot of coaching. I've worked with a lot of business coaches. I highly, highly recommend it.
It's just better than therapy, but it's therapy. And the goal of business coaching, in my opinion, is for you to understand yourself, understand your motivations and what you're gonna bring to the table. Because ultimately what I have learned and honed is if you are a liar, you wanna put on all the fancy labels.
And I'm walking in with my Louis Vuitton, Vince, and I think this is what it looks like to be a designer. You're basically perpetuating imposter syndrome, but it's because you're a [00:34:00] liar and you're lying to yourself. So my fear was always around money 'cause I always had a scarcity of money and I worked the problem.
I taught full-time, I worked part-time at Home Depot. I was taking jobs on the side. I was trying to get money in to make myself feel better and I would have strokes and I was not necessarily doing business the right way because I was always. Worried about getting more money in, I would say yes to 35 clients at one time.
And I never just really distilled it down to the right client. Like I can have one project, but if it's the right project, then I can put all my energy and focus into that one project, right? So I would do better work, look at my portfolio, like hello, you know, it is abundant. And so I, with coaches, learned how to focus on an abundance mentality and not a scarcity mentality.
And I also learned that if I'm being my most creative self, so I'm designing, I'm working on a rug, I'm putting together a palette, a mood board, I'm focusing, or I'm just dreaming. You know, I go into Pinterest, you could lose me [00:35:00] for hours if I am immersed in that, if I travel, if I go and I walk through an old church and I just look at.
Plaster relief and different, you know, tiles on the floor that Gods provide. Every time I've booked a very expensive, or just to me it seems like an expensive trip, I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna leave my business. I'm gonna go away. Like a new job comes in or something like refills and replenishes and I, it's happened enough times now that I trust it.
But what I learned on a, one of my coaches that I had worked with, my first coach that I'd ever really worked with, did a podcast, I don't know, probably eight, nine years ago. And he asked me to do on it, and it was all about your superpower. And you know, I found like, oh, this is all hokey. This is the buzzword and the coaching world.
But I'm on this podcast with him and he was living in Costa Rica at the time, so I couldn't see him. We didn't, it wasn't on a Zoom call, it was just on a, like a Skype call. And he asked me to tell the story about what my superpower was, and I. Kind of, I had never really put it to words like I kind of had it.
In [00:36:00] my head, but I'd never really thought about it in that moment. But as I was saying it, I was like, holy shit. But I said, I can read people in about 30 seconds, and this is why I knew the flags were all up with the previous guy. I was seeing all the lies. I was seeing the half truths, the mistruths, the omissions, like I could see it all.
But the thing was, is that I had a really lousy relationship with my dad and my stepmother. I would come home, I, I would look up the road to see whose car was in the driveway and. In that 32nd split, I had to decide how I was going to come in the door because I knew had to figure out and read, is it a good day?
Is it a bad day? That kind of thing. As that experience from probably when I was like 10 until I was 18, going through that honed that skill for me, and that's my superpower. I mean, I'm wonderfully creative. I can do that, but I can read people and I really understand their story and I hear all the things they don't tell me, and I see.
The little snipes with their partners or how they talk to other people. I see the stress and I try it. We, we actually [00:37:00] have in our contract, you'll love this, but we have in our contract, we have a strict no asshole policy. You can't be an asshole. Your mother-in-law can't come over here and be an asshole.
The trades can't be an asshole. Your dog cannot be an asshole. Strict, strict, violating the no asshole politic. But this is, this is all because I don't wanna work with people like that. I want joy. Yeah. I don't play the games and read all the, through the haze and try to figure out where that's, that's like designing with a gun to your head.
Cool. 
It's stressful and it's 
so stressful. And then there's cortisol and then you gotta get fat. 
Right, exactly. So when you're looking at your, I use the term ideal client, I'm sure you've heard of that, but when you're looking at the client is your very best client that you really want to work with, how soon are you picking up on these signals from them?
Do you do a discovery call before you meet with someone at their home? 
I'm just trying to think. Like sometimes it's like, 'cause it's a referral, it's an email from someone. So I do try to get on the phone. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's weird because we're working on a project right now [00:38:00] where the. People from like years gone by through our best clients.
And I say that just because I, my best are the people that I've been working with for 20 plus years. And this particular client, they'd worked together. And I knew them and I just found out last week that it has been her dream for 20 years to hire me, but she didn't feel she could afford us, and she's so happy with her new home because it's so much color and it's like an Indian explosion.
She thought she was gonna get one room. I'm like, wait a minute. Do you know who you're talking to? Like. Let's do it all. It's so great. But to get 
to that point to where she actually wanted to, she didn't think she could afford you or hire you like that is a great place to get to as well. 'cause as you said before, the tire kickers are no longer kicking the tires of your business.
Yeah, no. I had somebody that was a referral and we kept trying to have a meet. Like, I'll meet with you, I'll get on a plane. In fact, I've flown to people. On my dime for a project that was, you know, I'd done some talks with them, but I'm [00:39:00] happy to get on a plane, go and meet with you, and let's go for a drink.
Let's go for dinner. Let's have a date, 
right? Mm-hmm. 
I have to know that I can be myself with you, like I want you to invest your heart and soul into this and your money. Mm-hmm. But, so yeah, I am game to do that. Like those are to me, let's. Getting on a plane to go meet with someone and like walk through and look at a project without them having to pay for it is absolutely for sure.
It's better than hiring a publicist for a month. So why wouldn't I do that? Let's see if we're gonna be like a fit, because I feel that if I start to work with you, I'm gonna become part of the family. I'm gonna get invited to all the birthdays, the births, the deaths. I will hold your hand and think about you and care about you and celebrate your wins.
That's. The relationship that I'm going for with my ideal client. Yeah, it's long term. Yeah. People who are like, it's just gonna keep it business and we're never gonna do that. I won't take calls and I won't text messages. I'm like, whatever you wanna text me, you wanna like send me smoke signals? I don't care.
I just want you to communicate. What [00:40:00] can I get to get you to talk to me? Tell me all the things. 'cause then I know that I'm in the loop and has that ever, I also know when I'm not in the loop. 
Well, yeah. Has that ever blown up in your face to where you give carte blanche access to yourself? A heart and soul.
We all have 
a car blanche. They all have carte blanche. 
Wow. 
Some people are respectful when they really value. 
Some aren't. 
Well, no. They're respectful until they're not. 
Yes, 
and some people will absolutely show their true colors. Don't get me wrong, the last four years I have dealt with some of the biggest assholes.
I 
can't even believe. And people that, some people that I like loved, and I'm like, why are you suddenly such an asshole? So that's when I become a very like sloughy sleuth, right? And I'm looking at things and I'm wondering, well, what's going on here and what's going on there? Maybe you're a liar. Right.
Like there's also people who will lie to you. Yeah. They'll blame other people and they're narcissists. And at this point I probably have a PhD in psychotherapy, 
and I think you can have [00:41:00] that. I'm the same way. I can instantly understand in about 30 seconds to 60, kind of who this person is, what they're about.
But also I've had the wool pulled over my eyes with people who put up a good act, like very good actors and actresses in the beginning. And I'm like, yes, this is a good client. And then later on you realize like, oh shoot. No, this was not, they put up an act in the beginning. 
Yes, there's that for sure. And then there's also like sometimes when you get a referral, you don't vet it.
I don't vet it as well as I should have. 
Mm-hmm. In 
the case that I'm thinking of, the referral really had been trying to push for us for years, and it was kind of like the person brushed it off, but they blew through all these other designers and finally project really wasn't going where they wanted it to go.
And we came on board and transformed it. We saved the project and it's beautiful. It's unbelievable. And there were times where they seemed so incredibly appreciative. Did something else happen at some point? And I don't know what happened. Mm-hmm. I have lots of theories about things. None of them are [00:42:00] based on, it's just theories.
I have theories I think based on, 'cause I know some of the family dynamics and, and things that have happened. Yeah. But like everything was great and I don't know why. So. And stuff happens. So I, I also find this is another red flag. If you have one point of contact that you've worked with, especially for long term, like I've dealt with the wife, as soon as the husband gets involved, that shit is gonna get fucked up.
Every time. Every time I have, I sail with a guy, he's going through a divorce. He's always said, in fact, even front of his ex-wife, he would say, when I like get to this level of success, Meredith is gonna do my house. Like, okay. All right, Dick. All right, anytime now. So this summer, he said to me after, like I knew that he'd broken up with his ex.
He's like, I'm gonna go do these things and when I come back, I'm gonna sell this place and then I'm gonna buy a new place and you're gonna do it. So I said to him, no problem. You have to agree to stay single until we're done.
Yep. Can't get 
a girlfriend. You can't get engaged and [00:43:00] you definitely can't get married during the process. 
Yeah. Have been there, done that where you're working so great and you're on that final 11th hour, that home stretch and ready photo 
shoot. 
Yes. And suddenly they bring in a girlfriend who hates every, I'm like, she'll be done in like two weeks.
So you just let us next client, 
bring in a new girlfriend. And we had painted all the interior doors, this beautiful pale, a multi blue to go with the walls and she had them paint the doors white. 
Oh no, 
I know. So I've said I, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna shoot this condo that we did. This beautiful condo. I'm gonna Photoshop the doors.
Yes. 
Back to the, that they're supposed to 
be. It just doesn't sound great. Awful. So you mentioned before we we're almost running out time, but before we do, I want to talk about your. Inspir, where do you find inspiration for the beautiful color palettes that you bring to projects that you bring to your rugs?
You touched somewhere you find some of your rug inspiration, but is it travel? Is it Pinterest? Is it just everything that inspires you? 
I say all the above. Mm-hmm. [00:44:00] Um, travel's huge. Uh, I think I have like 400,000 photos in my photo library. Maybe that's why it just didn't update so fast. Today. I have a photographic memory, so.
You're kinda screwed. 'cause I remember every conversation and I remember everything. I see. Husband never wins, doesn't even track. But I have these visual touchstones where, you know, there's a particular photo I have of Canal in Venice by the Guggenheim. I had stopped to take this shot and it's got the gold in it and the green and it's just.
Like, perfect. 
I was just in Bennett. I know exactly what you're talking about. I was just there. Yeah. Yeah. 
So I, I use those a lot, uh, in the office. Like people will know, they'll call it Meredith Green, or the Green Meredith likes to use, or like the blue Meredith likes to use, like everybody knows like Mallard Green, that blue green, that, that Venice Canal, it works with everything.
It's softer than black. So, you know, you paint your interior doors and that and ugh, the lacquer, God, it's just so good. 
But see what you did there, Meredith. What you did was just wove another [00:45:00] story into the reasoning behind it. It's perfection because when you're speaking with a client about why you love this color or why you love this piece, or.
Light fixture, whatever, a story, always sells it for me. Every single time. 
A photo and show them 
even better. Yeah, even better, right? Like this is like, yeah, you're getting this because I saw this and this reminded me of something that you need in your house. Like how much more couture can you get for a client's design?
Right, 
exactly. And I always encourage clients to dream with us. So we usually do a shared Pinterest board because I will see a continuity of something in there, like they might just. Keep pinning the same idea over and over again. They might not realize it. And also ask them to always give me examples of things you hate because I don't wanna waste your time.
Yeah. 
What I think is farmhouse chic and what you think is farmhouse chic, we probably don't overlap. I hate. I 
love that line you just said. I wanna repeat like you always encourage clients to dream with you. That's beautifully spoken because it's one thing to say, show me what you like [00:46:00] or show me what inspires you.
When you say you encourage the clients to dream with you, that just sounds like this beautiful journey that you're going to have together that leads to but's how you them to 
say yes. 
So 
I routinely, you know, you'll show them things and you're getting a lot of nos or whatever. And usually what I have learned is that I just have to figure out the semantics of what you're after.
And you will be really fixated on budget when you like things. Yeah. But when you love something, budget isn't really the the conversation anymore. And how can we afford that? Well, we can make other changes. We can cut other things out because we have to go with this. And I've also learned, I never used to do this, but I now do this, was I start with the rug.
I start pulling the fabrics and the palettes and the inspiration, but I get the rug in early. For designers, margin, margin, margin, bespoke as much as you can. You have to begin with the end in mind. You have to, in your presentation, your rug has to be in there. You can't go shopping. You're not gonna go and do a [00:47:00] looky-loo.
Mm-hmm. So test stop with that. Like you're the expert. Tell me how you like to sit. Let me sit, let me measure you. Okay, we're good. And you have to put the R in you if you don't. Begin with the rug and the art. It's never gonna be done. People will always shortchange you there. New Zealand wool is better than anything you can get at ikea.
I'm sorry, you're just putting in the landfill like in two minutes. As soon as it's in your house, it's gonna look dirty and you're want it to smell like, come on. Like you like New Zealand wool. It's antimicrobial. It has the highest lanin can it? It resists stains. Like I can get red wine out of a.
Freaking white rug. Can you say the same about all of the rugg bowls? Like, oh, great. You can peel it off and throw it in the wash. Like, who wants that? Like, ew. It's like, why don't you just put a bath mat in your living room then? 
Well, what it comes down to is trusting your designer too. They're trusting you to know, I've tried this, I've experienced this.
I, I've liked this. I didn't like this. I'm going to give you my advice and my experience and my expertise, which is what you're paying for. 
[00:48:00] Totally. Two other things. This is, this is my bee and my bonnet. Minimalism. How do you make any money in this business? You're a minimalist. I don't get it. You're gonna charge people some stupid amount for like square edge 
wouldn.
Come on. 
That's funny. You cannot do that. Too funny. Maximalism is the way to go. Number one, 
everyone's switching their careers right now. 
You never do. If your interiors look like the opening page of Restoration Hardware or Crate and Barrel. Find another line of work. You cannot compete with them. 
Yeah. 
If your client can shop you in like three clicks or less with a Google lens, yeah.
You're doing it wrong. 
Mm-hmm. Like even 
if you did that 'cause of budget, you know, and you did all white interior, put in a freaking showstopper of a rug that no one can compete with because all of a sudden now you've made it art. Right now your minimalism is like, I just put this insane AMI rug for Meredith in this project, and boom, you know, and then all of a sudden they're suddenly like, oh, you know [00:49:00] what?
That rug's got green and blue and gray, and my white interiors. Maybe I need a green pillow and maybe I need some more art. Like, see. That's when the They're calling you back? Yeah, because the rug, my feeling about the rug, it's visceral. They walk in with their bare feet and they are reminded that they have a quality investment piece in their home, and that makes all the lousy corners that you cut.
It's like you're a rug designer or something. It's like you're a rug company. 
The thing was, is that was one of my things was as I realized that I wasn't getting pro, I was borrowing rugs. From showrooms to photograph for magazine shoots because my clients hadn't invested in them and they didn't like it.
It was just like, oh, and then I'd get the looky-loos and the tire kickers calling me because they saw that, oh yeah, you really retrofitted that IKEA kitchen and made it something else. And I'm like, I can't make money doing that. 
Yeah, I wanna 
make money. So I needed to have more bespoke and I needed to.
Up the ante and rugs and really good photography as art. 'cause you can do [00:50:00] oversized, you can print onto acrylics so it doesn't have to be too much. Those are these big, colorful statements in a space that make people want more layers. More layers mean more products, more calls, more ordering, more finished project, and the finished projects.
Get you to a magazine and get people interested. 
Well, and copycat design will never get you anywhere if you're just copying what everyone else does. Number one, they're gonna keep scrolling on Instagram. They're not gonna stop and see what your page is about. And number two, if you look like Restoration Hardware, showroom, then why would someone even call you?
Because that is already in the bag for that other company and that other thing. Well, those companies 
now offer free design service. Exactly. Which is a free shopping service. Exactly. Call a pre-designed service. Yeah. 
And it boils down to easy design. I mean, I'm not gonna get on that. Like really, like you're going to just like put everything the same color, like one shade off in your entire home and that's gonna be finished and it's completed.
But is it interesting? No, it's not interesting. So I, I'm with you there. Before we end, tell people first how to find out more about your RUG collection and also how to find [00:51:00] out more about your designs that you do and where you are hanging out these days on social media. So 
I moved over to Blue Sky. I gave up a car a year ago and I ride a bike everywhere.
Oh, bike lane. Go bike. Even in the winter, even the snow. Go Meredith. Um, yeah, much healthier. Uh, but I at Meredith Heron is my design personal. You get a whole flavor. It's my life. It's, it's just who I am. 
Same. It's my favorite 
foods that other people are cooking for me. Um, we are our businesses, 
aren't we?
We are our businesses. We 
are, and I have a very dark sense of humor. Very dark, but I love it and I and the like-minded people find me all the time, which is amazing. Also on Instagram and then our websites are meredith herrin collection.com and meredith herrin.com and yeah, and I, I actually, I, I soft launch this, but I, I started my blog again.
Oh, 
I'm just dipping my toes, but sometimes I need to say more like this. Mm-hmm. On things that I'm [00:52:00] really passionate about and uh, yeah, just trying to go through my process because I find that if we talk as an industry about things that we're passionate about, like I like doing ceilings. I put wallpaper on ceilings, I lacquer ceilings, I put millwork on ceilings.
I could tart that shit up all day long. 'cause you do look up a lot. And again, when you're dreaming, your eyes always go up. When you're dreaming. So it's just this whole like, wow, I love it. So big, big thing for me, z. Mm-hmm. And women especially. We might be the majority of designers, but we actually are trusted the least.
I'm encouraging women right now, take up space, own it, and don't apologize. Yeah. Um, you're valuable. You work hard. You deserve to be at that table and don't sell yourself short and ask for what you want. 
Bravo. Bravo. I love that. And we'll put everywhere that you're located in the show notes. We didn't even get a chance.
Stop 
Meredith here. Yes. 
Find her, send her questions and let her give you all the answers. No, you've [00:53:00] given a lot of people a lot of information. Today. I think we need to do a part two and talk more about two things. I wanna talk more about the television aspect of your life and business and also I want to maybe dive deeper into all of your coaching experience that you've had 'cause you so much.
I love coaching my students as well, and I love that you've learned a lot from that and continuously apply it. To your live. So stay tuned. There'll be a part two. I feel of this very soon because this was, I would 
love that. 
This was so much fun. You're just a great storyteller, a great business person, a great designer.
Now I know a great photographer, so you're just good at all these things. So congratulations on Thank you all your success, and thanks again for joining us today. 
I appreciate it very much. 
Thanks for tuning into this episode of the McClain Method podcast. I'm so grateful you made it all the way to the end because that tells me that you're ready to do the work that truly transforms your brand.
Your business and your life. If you want more tools, trainings, and behind the scenes looks at what I'm building next. Head over to McClainmethod.com and don't forget to follow along on Instagram at [00:54:00] the McClain Method for even more drops of brilliance. And remember, my friend, your brilliance is your brand.
Don't dim it, design it. I'll see you next time.