70: You’ve Got the Talent—So Why Aren’t You Profitable Yet? Part 2 with LuAnn Nigara

In episode 70 of The McClain Method Podcast, host John McClain continues his insightful conversation with Luann Nigara, a leading figure in the interior design industry. 

They delve into key aspects of running a successful design business, including mindset, pricing, and branding strategies. Luann shares her journey, emphasizes the importance of being unapologetically yourself, and discusses the value of professional guidance. 

They also address common industry challenges such as client objections and effective communication. Listen in for practical advice and strategies to elevate your design business to new heights.

00:00 Introduction to The McClain Method Podcast

00:23 Welcome and Episode Overview

01:22 Continuation of Conversation with Luann Nigara

03:24 Branding and Professional Guidance

05:10 Mindset and Pricing Strategies

08:40 Practical Tips for Designers

11:24 The Importance of Practice and Preparation

16:40 Value and Credibility in Design

23:17 Debate on Markup Pricing

25:18 The Importance of Pricing Transparency

25:58 The Value of Service in Pricing

28:20 Establishing Systems and Processes

29:08 Communicating Value to Clients

31:15 Setting Clear Expectations and Boundaries

32:49 The Importance of Budget Discussions

36:30 Understanding Client Needs and Value

43:23 Final Thoughts and Industry Wishes

More on Luann Nigara:

LuAnn's Website: https://luannnigara.com/

LuAnn's IG: https://www.instagram.com/luannnigara/

John On A Well Designed Business:

Episode 472: https://luannnigara.com/472-john-mcclain-running-his-firm-from-two-coasts-makes-systems-and-tools-critical-2/
Episode 844: https://luannnigara.com/844-john-mcclain-turn-failure-into-success-2/
 

Transcript

The McClain Method Podcast, Episode 70
If you can explain to a consumer, I am doing this for you, I am selecting it, I am finding it. I am sourcing it. I am pricing it. I am checking on it. I am receiving it. I am packaging up for you. You know, all the people are doing it on my behalf, but I'm managing that Then yeah. You're not gonna get it for the same price as you could get it online.
Sorry. Go get it online. 
Hey y'all. You're listening to the McLean Method Podcast, episode number 70. Welcome to the McLean Method, the podcast for interior designers who are ready to stop hiding and start shining. I'm your host. John McClain designer, business mentor, author, and your branding bestie. This is not about paint colors or pendant lighting.
It's about building a business that's both visible and profitable inside and out. From marketing and messaging to mindset systems and visibility, we cover the front stage and the backstage of your design business because your brilliance deserves the [00:01:00] spotlight and your business deserves to run like a dream behind the scenes.
So if you're ready to be seen, get recognized, and get booked, it's time to let it shine. Welcome to the McLean Method. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the McLean Method podcast. I'm your host, John McLean, and very happy to have you here. This episode is going to be a continuation of my conversation with the one and only.
Luanne Nira. We started last week and had lots of great information about how Luanne began her business, some of the ups and downs that she experienced along the way, and how she ultimately has become a leader in our own industry. And there's so many things that you can take away from that conversation to apply to your own business.
So if you have not listened to part one of my conversation, go back and listen to episode six. Nine where Luann and I really talked about her own personal journey, but today, as I said, we're back with part two of my convo with Luann, and this time we're getting into the real business of [00:02:00] interior design.
And in this episode, Luann and I dive into the mindset pricing and even branding strategies that will separate the profitable designers from the ones who still might be playing small. Is that you? We'll also talk about why so many designers struggle to brand themselves, and also how Luanne built a brand around being unapologetically herself.
We're going to discuss the role of professional guidance and how not knowing everything is actually a power move. Then we're going to talk about the real reason why you're scared to talk about money and how that can shift. Today, Luann talks about what she calls batting practice and why that is the secret weapon to confident pricing, even if you don't have real.
Clients, yet, this is a great convo that we have about getting yourself prepared to work with clients even if you don't have that ideal client on the books right now, we will also discuss how to handle client objections before they even happen. And yes, we butt heads, but in the very best way about markup pricing formulas and how designers should [00:03:00] charge for product, I think you'll enjoy our little bit of back and forth on the perspectives that we both have for making profit from your product.
So again, just like the last one, this one is. Packed with honesty, a little bit of tough love, and the kind of clarity that will move your business forward. All righty. Are you ready? Let's dive into part two of my conversation with Luanne Niagara.
But what you've done with. Your name? Well, first of all, it was a well-designed business. Now it's more so Luann, Nara, you're a brand and whether you accept that or not, Lou, you're a brand. So congratulations. 
Thank you. 
No, it's a wonderful accomplishment. Seriously. And I think that many designers have a hard time in branding themselves, and they really just see something and they want to replicate what another designer did.
And I always say, if you're scrolling and you look like everybody else on the screen. Role, no one's going to stop, and that's just exactly how it's going to be in any type of business. When you were thinking about branding yourself, okay, you had your niche, right? You knew you wanted to cater to interior designers, you saw a need there.
[00:04:00] What other ways did you say, oh, I'm going to brand myself, because I just find that is such a deficit in the design world for designers not having something specialized to them. So what tips do you have for people? How did you do it, and what tips do you have for people to brand themselves their own? So 
there's two very specific things in my mind when you say how and what tips.
Number one, and I'm gonna say it, you must be you. Period. Like you must be you. I've had people say to me, you are too extra for me. Your energy's too big. You're too loud. You can tell. They're just like, like, hi, how are you? Oh my God, Luann, I listen to your podcast. Great. Are you making money? That's usually my.
First question after, how are you? And thank you for listening. Are you making money? Because don't tell me you love my show and you're not making changes to make money. You know what I'm saying? Like, because, no, I don't, I don't have patience for that conversation. I'm not interested in somebody who just shows up, listens, thinks I'm great, but goes back to [00:05:00] not making money.
Yeah. So it's like my. First real tip is whoever you are be, you just do it. And the people who like it will like it and the people who don't, whatever. And then the second tip is professional guidance. Nicole Heimer has guided me through this from day one. Literally, Nope, we gotta make it like this. Nope, I think you should that.
And I'll be like, really? She. Has guided me in it. So you cannot know everything. You should not know everything. Don't even put that expectation on yourself. Go find the person that you know is good at it and attach yourself. Get an expert that helps you do what you do better. I never could have done it without Nicole Heimer.
Not a chance if I, when I first started the podcast. There was another company that was doing our website and you know what little social media there was in, you know, 2017 or whatever, 2016, and amazing people, [00:06:00] amazing heartfelt people, were very into what I was trying to do and very supportive and saw the thing, but.
Literally didn't say no, not that this. Hmm. Like if I said, oh, should we do it like that? Yeah. Okay. Well, what do I know from this? You know what I'm saying? Like, what do I know? It's like if you go to a client's house and they're like, I want my, my, my bedroom to look like a hotel. Should I have it like this?
And you go, okay, you don't, you don't do that. You're like, no, we should have this, we should do that. We should, blah, blah, blah. Like, you come in with your ideas. And so to me. I go to experts for everything I do. I went to Expert Audio production. I went to expert branding, people in the Heimer and website development.
You know, everything I did and you know, my job, your job as a designer is to show up as you. Not hide it and not be [00:07:00] less than like, you know, like if I'm selling you something, if I'm like, if I have to go back, like Kimberly is on maternity leave now, so if I gotta go and do a window treatment sale, you know, what am I walking in is Lura Inc.
No, no, right? Like, no, I'm walking in like, hi, you know, looking in, you know. Do you like the room dark? Do you like the room? 
Half an inch or an inch? 
Yeah. Right. Like, I'm gonna bring it down. But when you are your own, like you are creating a brand. No, no, no, no, no. We don't filter. We don't filter. We filter for kindness.
We filter for respect, right? Like I can be as cruel and harsh as crazy as any Jersey person can that stays outside. That's inside voice, right? Yeah. Like that's nuts. But I'm still gonna come whether I'm live on stage with you, whether I'm at a panel discussion with you, whether I'm in a podcast with you, you are getting like the, what I learned was.
The first year, the [00:08:00] number of times I was in public at the different markets, and people would spend time with me and they would be like, oh my God, you're exactly like you are on the show. I was like, yes, thank you. That is what you're supposed to do. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you have to have guidance and then, and then it gets tweaked with the guidance of an expert.
Yeah, Dolly Parton has a quote, and you know, I love Dolly Parton. And she says, find out who you are and do it on purpose. And I'm like, that is words to live by because so many of us, again, want to emulate other people and act like other designers or act like other podcast hosts and it'll get you nowhere.
It'll just put you in the same sea of sameness, which will. You're never gonna stand out. Do you find when people listen to the podcast or you know, you mention like, okay, I wanna know how much money you're making. I wanna know, are you profitable? I want to know, are you taking these and implementing them?
I feel like the society we're in is this kind of like, see it now, implement it 30 minutes later, or watch a TikTok reel and or Instagram reel and implement it. That annoys me to no [00:09:00] end. How everybody wants it so quick and so fast without. All of the door knocking and the hard work that we put into this.
So how do we educate people to say, yeah, here are the tips, here is what we're giving you. Here's the platforms, the steps. But you have to do that because implementation of those things is half the battle or more. Yeah. 
Well, I think what I often find is if I'm talking with somebody and they're having difficulty in their business to be profitable, you can tell if somebody's doing it or not doing it.
You can, you can tell by the things. So you start to say, so what have you tried? What have you done? Oh, well, you know, I thought about doing that, but that won't work for me. Oh, I thought about doing that and I, I tried that, but it didn't work. And I'd be like, well, how long did you give it a try? Oh, I did it four times.
Oh, okay. Right. Okay. So, all right, fine. You are waiting for the world. You are waiting for the Instagram TikTok world to just appear in front of you. Yeah. I say it on the show all the time. You're spending every day preparing to be lucky. It's exactly what you're doing. You're doing all of the [00:10:00] work. And I use the analogy on the podcast all the time about major league sports players.
You know, like. My era, you know, it was Derek Jeter. Now it's Aaron Judge. Right. It's like Aaron Judge. He has one job. His job is to make, to do home runs. That is what they hire him for. That's, yes. He is gonna play first base and he is gonna do this and he is gonna be the captain of the team. But I'm gonna tell you if Aaron Judge.
Did not hit home runs. He's not playing first base and he's not captain of the team and he doesn't wear a Yankee uniform. That man is hired to hit that ball over the fence. Okay? But here's the thing, Aaron Judge doesn't show up a hundred times a year on game day and go, hope. Today's the day I hit a home run.
50,000 between the games and between the seasons. And he lifts weight and he eats well. So [00:11:00] moment he's at the plate. He has increased his chances within his own abilities to the maximum level of expectation that he's gonna hit a home run because he's also gonna strike out. But the thing is, he has gotta walk away and look in the mirror and look at his coach and say, I did everything I could so that on this moment, on this at bat, I had the chance to hit a home run.
And you know what? A lot of times in our business, like I just had a young designer that just finished her chairman of the board with me yesterday, and she's young. I love this kid. Eight months in business and she invested the five figures for chairman of the board. She's like, I wanna start right. I wanna do it right.
Like my husband and I, we talked about it. We're investing no different than buying ovens. If I was gonna make pizzas right, and I said to her. She, you know, we're, we're setting her up for next year. Like, what are you gonna do next year? What's on your plate? How are you gonna manage this? And she's still working on building her pipeline.
And I said to her. [00:12:00] I want you to stay in batting practice. I said, your biggest obstacle is going to be explaining your fees, why you're worth it, what they are, how people will pay them, and what you will deliver for your fees because that kind of practice. Is like real time. Like get your right, you get your knees knocked out from under you.
The biggest mistake interior designers make is they underestimate how many hours it takes to do something. Oh, I could probably do that bathroom redesign in seven hours. Really on the 15th hour. Tell me what's happening now. You're now working for 20 cents an hour. And I said to her, I said, so look around your house.
I said, redesign your own powder room. Five times. Yep. Clock your hours, redesign your living room. 15 different combinations. Clock your hours. Because I said now, even though it's your third attempt to close a job, somebody says to you, how can it be 15 hours to design a [00:13:00] bathroom? You're gonna be like, believe me.
I know it's 15 hours. 
That is some of the best advice, and I do the same. I'm like, oh, you don't have a project. Create a project, create a renovation. Do the CAD plans, do the selections, do the reselection, do the iffy client. You know, like play that role. And then you're going to know, because there's no need in sitting around with your hands crossed, waiting for someone to knock on the door.
When you could be doing the groundwork to get that done. And I think that so many times we just think like, oh, we have to have this paying client to do that. You really don't. That's what we did in design school. We had these fake projects that we were working on. Create your own now. Yeah. Or even if you wanna branch out into a different part, let's say you want to, I.
Catered to real estate agents in some capacity. You know, practice whatever this new thing is you want to bring into your business. Practice it in the peacefulness of your own home without someone looking over your shoulder. But also act as if there is a client on the other side to say, oh, I hate that.
Oh, let's change that. Oh, that's perfect. You know, 'cause it will happen. And then. It gives you that [00:14:00] credibility also, I always try to have like a list of objections in the back of my mind where I'm meeting with clients, you know? Yep. And so if you had to kind of make up these objections ahead of time, you can have that in the recesses of your mind to say, oh, I know how to answer that question because my fake client has already asked me that question.
Exactly. Right. Well, the thing is, look, I, I know John, you know it from your own personal experience and you know it from all the designers that you coach now. You know, there's a moment in your business where you will not accept less because you've done it. You've done that bathroom design 15 times. It might have taken you five years of your business to get 15 bathroom projects to done, or that living room design, you've done it enough to know that when you tell somebody, oh, my flat fee for doing a bathroom is $6,500, and what's that based on?
Well, it's based on 15 hours, and of course I'm making up numbers and it's like. When somebody says, oh my God, how could it take you 15 hours to do a bathroom when you've done 15 bathrooms? And you know that's the hours. You're just like, [00:15:00] sweetie, that's how long it takes to do a bathroom. Yeah. Don't debate me.
You know, unless you know how to do it. But the thing is, it's that moment when you've done it so many times that you will not give away your value because you know it intrinsically and all's. I'm saying, if you are not busy. Then you only practice. By having a real client, then you only put the bat in your hand When you're at home, play during a game.
That's it's go figure out, go do it 15 times. So even if it's the first customer you present it to, you're just like, that's what it is. That's how much it costs. Like you don't have to do it. You can find somebody. I always tell somebody keep calling. Oh, I think somebody will do it. Less expensive. No, no, no.
I'm sure somebody will. Sure You just, everybody you call will lower the price to beat the guy before you. But when they all do a crappy job, you call me back and you're ready to do it. Yeah, 
yeah. And you have those deliverables and. Place, I'm going to provide you with this, this, and [00:16:00] this because I've done this before.
I know exactly what you're going to need. I know exactly what this room is going to need. Probably how many times you're going to say, oh, I hate that, or I like that. Right? So, and then you're gonna go back to choice number one, which is always the case. But no, I think, you know, just like when you say I wanted to write my book, and I had that in as part of the process.
It adds credibility to your business when you have these other things to sort of support you, right? Mm-hmm. And so many designers don't really feel confident in themselves and in their abilities because they don't have these other ways to say, yes, I've done this. Yes, I know this is the right answer. Yes, this is the best solution for this problem, because they don't have that sort of backing to lift them up with that.
I think that. I encourage designers to join organizations. You know, I-D-S-A-S-I-D, like all these things because you never know what client's going to look at you and say, oh look, they're a member of the organization and I just happen to see someone speaking about that. Now I trust them more. Right? So all these things.
Just build you up to this certain [00:17:00] level of credibility with your clients and then you can rattle off and you can say, confidently that's going to be $75,000 for your bathroom. $75,000 for Yes. Because yes, in my experience, this is what's happened in these situations. And it doesn't happen like as you said, overnight.
It does not, it's always a growing, you know, I was, anybody with a checkbook and a pulse of course was my first client. Right. We all have that. Right. That's okay. But at some point, like you said, there has to be. That cutoff to where you're like, no, I will not stand for anything less than this price. I have value, and I'm bringing that to you, and you're either going to appreciate it or you're going to move on to someone else and find out why I was really so good at, at what I'm doing.
Now, I wanna ask you we're, I know we're running over time here, but you give, give, give, give, give. Lou on your podcast and in all of your speaking engagements and all the things that I see you do, you're always. Giving to people, and I know we all appreciate that. And so I just wanna say thank you for that, first of all.[00:18:00] 
But what's your currency like? What is the value exchange for you? What is important for you to get back from all of this? You've built a great company. You've built a great brand, you've built a great business, but what's the currency exchange for you when it comes to. All that you're giving to the design community, what do you value in that exchange?
I mean, I cannot express the satisfaction, the pride, the joy that it gives me. When somebody tells me about the transformation in their business from before they were running their business and their business was running them to them being the CEO of their business. I have had. So many designers come up to me and say, you know what, somebody just, it was just an Instagram.
I think yesterday or today. Somebody was just like, literally on the post saying. Everything I know about running my business, I learn from you and all the people that I introduce and intersect them with, like yourself and Nicole and Sandra, [00:19:00] and Nancy Ganzi and all the people, Rick and everybody, right? And it's like, it's my greatest joy.
I love connecting. Like if you have a need, oh, I gotta find somebody to help you get that need. If I'm the answer to that need, great, but if I'm not, I'm not like, well, that's not my lane. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Let me find somebody in that lane for you. Whether I bring them on the show. I have taken people at.
Markets at different things, and they're saying to me, oh, I really have a struggle with this. And I'm like, oh my God. You know Nicole Heimer standing right over there late. I'm gonna, let's go get her. Let's bring her over here. You know? And so when I have the opportunity to understand and learn firsthand from somebody that they have taken the information that I have gathered and collated through all of these brilliant minds in this industry, they have.
Taken an action on it and they get a result that has impacted their life and their business. I'm just like, yeah, I could do this all day long, every day. Like, 
yeah, 
it's just amazing. 
Yeah. I kind of thought that's what you were [00:20:00] going to say, and I know that much about you. It's always good to ask someone, what can we give you?
What can we help you with? Because you do give. So much, and I know that it's inside of you, and I know that it's truly a part of who you are, but also I think it comes from this inquisitive mind that you have, because the questions that you're asking are not as if an interior designer is asking another interior designer that question.
It's someone saying, I have great business knowledge, but. Tell me how you do that process and tell me why that works or why that doesn't work. Right. And I think in the midst of that, you're just uncovering little nuggets of information that you're having Aha moments. Yes. And then other people are like, oh my God.
Like Luann asked a question that I've always been embarrassed to ask. Right. 
Yeah. Well, and I think that is, I think there is a great value in your podcast and your conversations with designers 'cause you've been their boots on the ground and you're like, girl, like, I get it. Right? Yeah. And there's no question, but I think the layer that I bring is.
If you can't make me understand it, [00:21:00] and I've had 1400 conversations about this industry, then I got news for you, your garden variety human that you're pitching, that $300,000 project to, can't understand it either. You know, because I not only understand business, but I kind of understand this industry and you know, I can't tell you how many times, like somebody will say something to me either on the show, be like, wait, what?
Like how does that like work? And it's really because I don't get it. And then I'm like. Oh, you mean this? And they're like, yeah, that's what I meant. Okay, well then say it that way next time. Right. Or like my designers that I coach and chairman of the board, you know, they, they know if they listen to this, they're laughing because I'm like, I don't understand.
I explained it all in an email. It's. Completely clear and it references my contract and I've just said, this is how it's gonna be. And I dunno why they still wanna know this thing. And I'll be like, well, what did the emails say? And I'll be like, my brain hurts. Let's read that. My No, no, no, no. No, no, that my brain hurts.[00:22:00] 
Yeah. Can a caveman understand it? If not, then don't ride it. 
I mean, it's complicated enough into your design. Yeah. Everybody has a different model. Everybody has a different pricing structure. You know, three quarters of the humans on the planet have never done a design project before. So you come at it with all this like, well, and if I jump sideways and I sit left and right beat.
If you ever have to say the word to me, it's in your contract and I'm your client, we have a lot more problems than you actually think because your contract, you should never have to say those. That's the first indication that there's a problem. Yeah, like. If you gotta remind somebody six months in that it's in the contract, what have you been telling them all along?
You know, I think 
if we shy away from just speaking the truth, yes. And just being honest about things, and it's so easy to do in the beginning when you're just with that person and they're all excited about the project, that's when you lay down the law and that's when you say, here's this, here's this, here's that, and then you just remind [00:23:00] them of these certain milestones in your weekly updates.
It's very simple. If we just don't overthink it and over worry about. What their response is going to be. But you kind of hit on something there that I think is a little bit prevalent in our industry, which is there's so much information out there that everybody's a quote expert on everything. What do you think is a bad piece of advice that designers might be following right now that maybe you're like, oh, I've heard this so many times, like, please stop doing X because it is obviously.
Not working. Yeah. 'cause there are a lot of people out there just shooting things off the hip without thinking. Yeah. About the effect that it's going to have. And I know there's a lot of bad advice out there, but anything that comes to mind for you? 
Well, it's very controversial and part of me is like, just keep your mouth shut.
No. I 
would have a healthy debate with anybody who. Feels that they have a very good process for it and they could defend their position. I would have a respectful, healthy debate with somebody. I totally would, but I You're to have it. I've yet to have it, by the way. I 
know what you're going to say 
is not.[00:24:00] 
Making markup on product. It's categorically illogical, and I know that there are very successful designers out there that have built business models on, you know, design fees and no markup and, you know, splitting markup and all the different models, but I don't agree with it. That's it. It's a business.
You know, like when you spend $25 for a pizza, it did not cost that guy $22 to make the pizza. It didn't, it just didn't, it probably cost him about four bucks. You know what I mean? And you're not staying there screaming going, I know you got that for four. Right? 'cause that is. Commerce. We people buy things at wholesale and they sell them at retail.
That's how it works in all the other industries. But somehow, some way the design industry decided, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Lemme be your personal shopper. Lemme go out and buy everything and lemme just give it to you for [00:25:00] like a dollar 50 extra. Like, no. Man. No sir. I'm not on board with it. 
No, I knew you were going to say that you did because you, you and I had this debate when I was on your podcast as well about that very thing.
While I agree with you totally on that about you definitely should make a profit off of it for sure. I also want to have that formula to show if I ever need to. That is just where I come from and we're probably gonna butt heads like two goats on the mountain, but I just know for me, I don't, I don't feel our industry is there yet to say I.
We are going to charge this and this is what it's going to be, and that's it. When I say, know how you came up with that number, it doesn't mean you have to tell your client on every invoice, right? But my thought process is have a way to show the calculation if that ever comes up, or have a way just to have that in your back pocket rather than.
You know, don't put it on your website. Right. You don't even have to put it necessarily anywhere written, but you should have a process for coming up with that number in 
my head. Well, and here's the thing. My feeling on it [00:26:00] is this, is that on one hand the industry is running around with their pants on fire.
You know, screaming about my client. Wants to shop me, my client wants to, you know, substitute this lamp for that lamp because they found it less expensive online. Right? But like when we lead the conversation with, I'm not gonna charge you the fair retail price, if we lead the conversation with. I'm, you know, part of what you get with working with me is you get product at a discount.
Well then how do you then get pissy when the person wants to save another 10 bucks on it? I mean, you've framed the conversation around how much money they're gonna save on products by working with you. And my thing is, is have at it. You know what? If everybody wants to decide where all this is the way it is, then then stop.
Pick a lane because you know what? The rest of the world has businesses where [00:27:00] it's not debatable. We don't walk into cap grill and go, how much did that filet actually cost you? How much did that bottle of wine cost you? I mean, you know what? My son-in-law was in the bar industry for many years. A professional bartender, right?
And at one time he told me that a restaurant will price a glass of wine. Now this is, I'm sure the higher you go luxury, the less this is true. But like you walk into like a Fridays or something, right? And if the glass of wine is nine bucks, that's what the bottle costs them. So you can buy the glass for nine, or you can buy the bottle for 35, right?
But like a lower end restaurant is gonna charge the nine because how many people are drinking a Pinot noir at Fridays? They're making the money on the bottle whether there's a cup. I can't tell you the number of times I go into our Fridays and I get a glass of Pinot Noir. I'm like, okay, this has been sitting here since I was here last week.
Please get me another bottle. Right? Running off the shelves at Fridays, right?[00:28:00] 
Even now knowing that when I had a glass of wine, I'm like, oh, great, I'm paying for the whole, but you know what, somebody opened it for me. Somebody poured it for me. Somebody asked to how I was doing. When they gave me the wine, they asked me did I want more chips. I can go to Bottle King and buy the damn bottle for $13.
Like, but I didn't want to. I wanted the experience. 
Yeah, but also too, you have to have the stuff to back that up. I think if you're charging this for something, then you need to have. Systems in place, you need to have team members to help, you know, track those orders. You need to make sure that they're right.
Like what is that? You can't just say, I'm going to. Order all of your products and then not have a plan in place for that. Right? Not have a system in mind, you know, a workflow at least. 
And the better you do it worse, I will pay $35 for the $10 glass bottle of wine that I could go get the bottle king for.
$15 and $9 for the glass. Right? Because what I just said, you are gonna open it, you're gonna talk to me, you're gonna schmooze me if you tried to charge me. $35 for the [00:29:00] bottle of wine that I could get a bottle king for 15. And you just put it, you know, I dunno, on the curb when I walked in the restaurant.
So that is your exact thing. It's like if you can explain to a consumer, I am doing this for you, I am selecting it. I am. Finding it. I am sourcing it. I am pricing it. I am checking on it. I am receiving it. I am packaging up with for you, you know, all the people are doing it on my behalf, but I'm managing that.
Then yeah, you're not gonna get it for the same price as you could get it online. Sorry. Go get it online. Yes. You know all the things, but I'm giving you the value with it, and so that's the part that makes me crazy. It's like, please don't give the value and still the charge, the discount. Crazy. 
Well, and two, if you sit down, what I did was just sit down and write all the things that we did come up.
Like it's so simple. Like just bullet point it out and you're like, holy crap. Like, look at all this stuff that we do. Like this is insane. And we're not even, we didn't [00:30:00] even know all that we did because we didn't take the time to write it down. And number two, their clients never gonna know because we haven't told them what they're getting for this.
Right? So I think if you, again, you just have that foundation to back it up and you can say, yeah, here are your deliverables. Here's what I'm giving you for that. That's why this is this. And then the client's like, oh, fantastic. I don't wanna have a 18 wheeler pull up to my house and I don't want to inspect something within 48 hours and return it.
Like nobody wants that in a high-end design. 
Right, right. It's like it's know what you deliver. Like, you know, there's some wines that make you crazy, right? Like you're at a mid-level restaurant and you see like, I don't know, Mark West, and you see that bottle of Pinot noir for like 28 bucks and then all of a sudden you walk in Cap Grill and the Mark West is.
$48 and you're like, it's the same damn Mark West, but it's not getting to me the same way. That experience isn't the same way. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like the way a cap grill weights on my table and checks on me and the environment and the ambiance, it's all different and yeah, I'm paying.
That's the point. There's the commodity in there, [00:31:00] but I'm paying for the service wrapped around it. Yeah, and that's the same point with, you know, the darn table in the dining room. You can get it for $8,000 on the internet, or you can get it for 14,000 for me. What am I gonna tell you? Yeah, you're gonna do all the things yourself.
Well, also what I enforce is having barriers to entry. So I'm not going to purchase that for you unless you hit this certain amount or unless you do this, this is what I need from you so that I can take care of this for you. Yeah. So if they're like, yeah. I wanna buy this table on my own, and I wanna remove that from the plan.
It's like, okay, well you still have to hit a hundred thousand dollars minimum with me, so what are we going to replace that with? Yeah. So for me, if that give and take exchange happens, I'm like, eh, okay. You buy that, right? We're gonna find out some other way to, to make profit for that division of my company.
And I think that's really critical too, right? Yeah. 
Right, right, right, right. Yeah. But this is a whole slippery slope. Yeah. But the profitability has to be accounted for, right? Like you have to have the different revenue streams within the project, right? Yes. 
Yes, yes, yes. And then [00:32:00] even me, I've restructured mine to where I think I've mentioned to you before, I have a creative fee, and then I have the product fee that we make, the profit margin we make off of products.
And then I have my project fulfillment. So for me, if they stop after creative, I'm like, all right, see you later. That's great. Love you, love you. Here's how that's gonna go. Or if you move on, then that's just extra profit from, I love them. 
I do love that model. I do love the separating out the creative fee, the design fees and like, you know, of course you want people to go through all the steps with you, but if they don't, you know, you break up, then it's fine.
You know, and having the very clear conversations at the beginning, if somebody. Doesn't like that you're gonna charge markup, then they need to know that then, and you need to say then, then we're not the place for you. Yeah. You know what I mean? Funny because I was just, last week I went to Chicago and I did a sales training for a team of 13 salespeople and I was there for a day and a half and I was trying to explain to [00:33:00] them that it's very important.
To ballpark what a consumer can expect to spend. So we are always saying in this industry, I asked them their budget and they didn't know, well, I'm gonna tell you, you ever asked me what my budget is? I'm gonna say, I don't know either. Yeah, I'm not telling you. This is your job to the sound. Right? And but the same time as professionals, we don't want to either specify.
$40,000 worth of window treatments if you have a $10,000 budget or $200,000 worth of furniture if you have a $50,000 budget. And so the thing is, it's up to us as the professional to put a parameter around what the budget could expect to be based on, you know, of 20 minute give and take on the conversation.
And if you can't ballpark that in 25 or 30 minutes of figuring out what your client wants, then you are doing your batting practice at home plate in a live game. And add up 16 rooms of furniture. What does it cost for the, your average living room? What does it cost for your [00:34:00] average bathroom? I was explaining to the sales team that I don't pull my samples out.
We don't start debating if you like Daisy White or Linen White before I know if you're gonna spend a thousand dollars a window on a duet shade. Like, and they're just like, we wait. You won't even get your samples. I'm like, no, you, you won't take a measurement. I'm like, no. Like, well, how do you know what it's gonna cost?
I said, because I've done my homework and I can look at a window and I can ballpark it within three or $400, and I can look at you and say, based on everything we just talked about, I think this, this living room and dining room is gonna come to 20 K. And they were like. The thing that they had a problem with, which they got over was.
Oh my God. You mean you will tell them it's like gonna be about $20,000 before you even show them samples, before you get them excited before you show the thing. I'm like, they're like, what if like they don't like that number? I'm like, don't I wanna know? Now the thing is, what I always tell everybody is, and we teach this in the seven [00:35:00] step class for both designers and window treatment professionals at Lou University, is if I'm looking around and I think it's gonna be 20 k, I'm gonna say 25 to 30.
Yeah. Yeah. And what happens is, if I have to pick that person off the floor, thank God I didn't spend 20 years designing the floor plan or picking the window treatments, whatever it is, right? But if that person looks at me and says, huh. Well, that's more than we wanted to spend. And I'll be like, well, what were you thinking?
Now they'll answer you because you've said a number. Yes. Well, we were thinking more like 20. Well, you see I'm fine with 20. I'm fine with 20 because that's what I thought it was to begin with. And alls I have to do to justify to say, well, you know what? I haven't even taken a tape measure out. We haven't even look at a sample.
I, you know what? I think we're good. Let's take next steps. Let's see, and now I know mentally I'm not bringing out this level. I'm bringing out this level. I'm gonna get them into that $20,000 number. Mm-hmm. But if I say 25 to 30 and they're like. Oh my God. We were at Home Depot. [00:36:00] This, you know, when we priced it at Home Depot, it was $500,000.
And I'm like, well, you know, you better get back to that aisle and then start arguing with your partner on which blind to get and see who's gonna like, you know, drill it into the hall and hope it doesn't fall in your dog's head. Yeah, see, you buy. 
Yeah, it's true. And you have to know the number. You have to get to that number in your head, and you have to say it confidently and not be wishy washy about it and not make apologies.
For it. You have to stand behind what you say or people are going to see that little, little crack in what you're saying. And I'm like, wait, what? What? Why? You know? So I think if you do spend the time researching and knowing, and I try to go into projects on a consultation, first of all, already on the discovery call, we talk about that, but I go into the project also knowing.
Past projects that we've had that were similar to that project. Massive, yeah. And it just allows you to say, oh yeah, the Smiths project was this kitchen and we removed this wall and we did this. We added an island that was, you know, $250,000 for that project. Right. How does that sound? And then you can do that test.
Uh, okay, they're gonna fall on the [00:37:00] floor. Or they're like, okay, fine, let's move on. Exactly. Then you have not wasted your time. But yeah, we all give our. Intellectual properties in the beginning of our careers, we just throw it all on the table. Here's every design, here's everything that's gonna be beautiful in your home.
Without even knowing if that's what the client can even have to spend. They may not even have the money to spend it. Much less want to spend it. Right? 
Exactly. Exactly right. Yeah. And then we get upset because, well then the client, you know, they just were having me out just to get my ideas. Red 
flag. Red flag.
I hate that so bad because it's like, no, no, it's your red flag, honey. It's. Not the client's red flag. Exactly. It's your own red flag. 
Exactly. It's funny because they was a little pushback on having the conversation about money upfront. So bluntly, right? So, and you bluntly doesn't mean disrespectfully.
Money's 
neutral to me, money's neutral. 
And I said, well, you know, imagine you are a consumer. Do you want your time wasted? Either Like maybe you go into a car dealership and you think you're going in to find a $25,000 car and you walk into A BMW dealership and maybe the lowest model [00:38:00] starts at 40 5K, but you start talking about, I've got four kids and I gotta fit a stroller and everything else.
And next thing you know, he puts you in the biggest SUV that they've got, and that one's 95,000. Oh my God. A sunroof would be amazing. And oh my God, I gotta. Taylor Swift with my daughter. We gotta get the best system. And then all of a sudden the guy's like, you're driving around the block. You love it. Oh my, this is how much is, oh.
Are you actually looking at that salesman and say, thank you for getting me so excited about a car that I don't have the means to drive in this decade. Tell me, Hey sweetie, our car start at 40 and here's what happens. If you walk into a car dealership and you say, I wanna spend 20 and their car start at 40, when that person doesn't walk out, now you know their real budget.
Right, exactly. 'cause people say all the time, I wanna spend 20, but I'll really go to 40. Like, you know, oh, okay. Our scores have started at 40. Oh, okay. Well show it to me. I'm a salesperson. I'm [00:39:00] gonna be like, well, you just told me your budget was 20. You gotta come back now and say, I can go to 40. Like, however you are gonna say it.
'cause it's not gonna be, nobody's ever gonna talk to you that directly. Right. But, well, let me see. I can talk to my, 
and we make those money conversations so hard and we build up the steering this inside of us where it's like, oh God, I don't even want to say a number. Even though it's a totally accurate number that, you know, you've done five other projects in that same manner that it's going to be this amount of money.
But we were like, oh, let's just tiptoe around it or. We say, oh, my hourly rate is X. You know, I'm charging two 50 an hour. And then you never give them an estimate of the time that you think the project is going to take. And then the client's like, oh, but two 50 an hour is probably like 10 hours to do the whole house.
Right? You're like, no. So I think that's the other like misstep that we make in our industry is like. Hooking the client on that hourly rate, 1 50, 100, whatever your hourly rate is. And then they're like totally noting 
what it's gonna cost. Exactly. And the thing is, if you're afraid to [00:40:00] say the number in the beginning.
Wait, so it's easier after you've done all the work. You still have to say the darn number. 
Hell no. It's not easier. No. It gets, if you set the tone upfront as you said, and say, I'm straightforward, I'm gonna be honest with you about what your investment's going to be. This is what the project is going to cost based upon other things that I've done before.
Then you set the tone and you say, I'm going to tell you what the price is. Yeah. You can either accept it or not. That's your choice. But I'm going to be straightforward and honest with you. And clear with you on what that's going to be. Yeah. And I think that's just the basis Yeah. Of a good relationship in general.
Right. And 
think about it, like, what I always say is keep remembering you are a consumer. Mm-hmm. So think of another luxury experience. What if you walked into an art gallery? Maybe you're on vacation and you walk into an art gallery and maybe you don't know anything about art and maybe you like I, this happened on the IDS trip.
I remember this happened on an IDS trip and we were getting off the boat. We had gone somewhere on a boat in Chicago and we were walking [00:41:00] down this thing, and I saw this. Amazing painting of a tiger. Now, you know, Tiger's my spirit animal. 
Yes. 
And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my god. But like, I dunno if this is right and you walk in the gallery and of course there's no prices, there's no prices.
But you know, I am old and I'm Jersey and I'm all puts, right? So I just like, the guy walks over and he is all like, all dressed up, all shihi, you know? And he's like, oh, can I help you? And I said, look, we can do this real easy. Just give me price point here. Like are we looking at. Thousand dollars pieces of art are $30,000 pieces of art.
And he's like, well, we're mostly in this, you know, 30,000, but we do have, some pieces are lower. And I'm like, okay, any chance that tiger's less than five? And he's like, no. And I'm like, you know what? It's gorgeous. It's beautiful. Have a great day. You know what I mean? Like I, I loved her, but I'm not that girl that spends 10 K on a tiger.
[00:42:00] But it's also the value that you place on something too, if that tiger was going to solve. Whatever problem that you have been looking for for 40 years and you're like, this will do it, then you would've paid whatever, right? 
Oh, I, I totally could have spent $10,000 if I wanted to. I could have your point.
The value isn't there, and what am I gonna do? Like when a client is like, not telling you their budget, right? Like, what if I was just like, oh, this is beautiful. Oh, let's look around and be, what do you like? Well, I kind of like the, he like an hour later now after he talks to me for an hour, like, sweetie, you're never gonna.
Spend that. Right. But you know what, to the point, it's just get your, just let your client understand the value and the range of it. Yeah. And then you'll gauge where to go from there. Yeah. In an honest and respectful way beyond that. 
Right. 
Yeah. And it's also 
knowing your client too. It's knowing what. They will value.
You get to know them better. You get to understand what they're going to say [00:43:00] yes to. Because I can tell you if you have some disease and this pill is going to cure that disease, you're gonna pay whatever the money it takes to get, oh yeah, you're gonna get that pill. Right. And if you have this pain point in your house, you're like, yeah, I'll pay that for it.
Absolutely. And whatever the cost is. So it's also just kind of that ebb and flow of understanding what your client's emotional. Triggers are. But anyway, that was a whole conversation that I, we could probably talk for four hours about that, but as we're wrapping up, I have one more question for you. If you were to have one wish for the future of the interior design industry, out of all of your interviews, out of all the people that you've spoken with, out all the pain points that you've heard from designers.
What would be a wish that you could say, I would wave my wand and have this happen for the betterment of the interior design industry. Is there something that you've encountered? 
Uh, yeah, 100%. It's so clear to me. I wish that every talented interior designer would recognize. The value of their talent. Like just literally you change [00:44:00] all of our worlds and you kind of know it and you kind of say it.
And when you're all together and you're feeling your feels and you're like, we make play like lives better, we impact people on a personal level. And I know that you know the words, but I want you to feel it in your soul. I want you to carry it every day and recognize that. We need you to do what you do.
Just like we need, you know, Aaron Judge to thrill us and hit home runs and we need, you know, scientists to cure cancer. Like it is not fluff. I. It is a required, needed, beautiful, necessary thing, and if you as an industry would be non-negotiable on your value, I really believe all of us as an industry would benefit from it.
I could not have said that better myself. That is beautiful, [00:45:00] and I know from you that it is heartfelt because I know you and I know that you feel that way, and I know that you do want all interior designers to stand up and own their value. So that is just perfectly said, so thank you. Luann, thank you. Or being on the other side of the microphone today, and for just sharing your journey, the story that maybe people have heard, or maybe there's bits and pieces that they didn't know, but I know that every time I listen to you and every time someone else spends time with you, they do learn something new and just pick up on something that they didn't even know before.
Whether it's something tangible for their business or something inside of our hearts that we didn't. Thank you for all that you do for our industry and for lifting us all up. You're fantastic. 
Thank you. Thank you. I, I have to say right back at you. I appreciate you. I just adore you, and I'm so glad that this industry brought you and I together.
Thank you, John. 
I agree. And I have my Luanne Nara Green on today. So we're sisters and Green Hug. 
Thank you, [00:46:00] John. 
Thanks for tuning into this episode of the McLean Method Podcast. I'm so grateful you made it all the way to the end because that tells me that you're ready to do the work that truly transforms your brand.
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Don't dim it, design it. I'll see you next time.