62: Mastering PR, Branding, & Marketing in the Design Industry With Jocelyn Hutt

In episode 62 of The Designer Within Podcast, hosted by John McClain, we delve into the world of brand collaborations and PR strategies. John chats with Jocelyn Hutt, a seasoned marketing and PR expert, about effective brand partnerships, storytelling in design projects, and the importance of both regional and national PR. 

Jocelyn shares invaluable tips for designers and creatives on how to elevate their projects and visibility, emphasizing the importance of high-quality photography, detailed product shots, and the power of in-person connections. 

Whether you're a design professional aiming to grow your business or someone interested in better promoting your work, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you succeed. 

Tune in for a masterclass in PR and marketing!

01:19 Introduction to Today's Episode and Guest

01:40 Deep Dive into Brand Collaborations and PR Strategies

03:33 Meet Jocelyn Hutt: PR and Marketing Expert

04:49 Jocelyn's Journey in the Design Industry

11:50 The Importance of Relationships in PR

21:54 Collaborating with Brands: Tips and Benefits

29:13 The Power of In-Person Connections

29:47 Trade Shows and Grassroots Campaigns

30:40 Navigating Magazine and Media Relationships

33:43 Understanding PR Firm Costs and Benefits

36:50 Effective Social Media and Blogging Strategies

38:25 Building Designer Communities

40:05 Becoming a Publicist's Favorite Client

42:16 The Importance of Storytelling in PR

47:19 Setting Realistic Expectations with PR Firms

51:46 The Value of Regional Publications

53:49 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

For more information on The Hutt Group or to contact Jocelyn and her team directly: jocelyn@hutt.group
Website | www.hutt.group
Instagram Handle | https://www.instagram.com/jocelynhutt/

🌟 For all things John: www.johnmcclain.co

📝 For more information on my online Courses & Coaching Program for Interior Designers, visit: https://designsuccessacademy.com/

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Transcript

If I were a designer who wanted to work with a brand, or if you were a designer who had used a brand and you see that they're exhibiting, bring over your iPhone with your portfolio and say, look, I used your product and we will roll out the red carpet for you. Even if you don't want to collaborate right now, we will still ask you, can we put you on our list?

Would you like to learn more? Can we collaborate in the future? We'll have the conversations and now you've made a good connection. Hey y'all, you're listening to the designer within designer edition and episode number 62. Welcome to the designer within podcast, the podcast where creativity meets intention and great design in your home and life goes way beyond aesthetic.

I'm your host, John McClain, an interior designer, business advisor, and full believer in the power of intentional design to inspire a better way of living. Whether you're a homeowner looking to elevate your space, a design professional striving to grow your business, or someone ready to create a more fulfilling life.

This podcast is for you. We're here to explore the art of design, the business behind it, and the mindset that fuels it all. Because great design isn't just about what's on the outside. It starts from within. So let's dive in and discover the designer within you. Hello, my friends. Welcome back to another episode of the designer within podcast.

This is a designer edition episode. So all of my interior designers and creative people, listen up. This one's for you. And actually I say it's a designer episode, to be honest with you, it could apply to almost any industry because today on the episode, we're going to dive deep into the world of brand collaborations.

PR strategies and invaluable advice for any creative looking to elevate their projects and visibility. I'm so super excited to have my guest Jocelyn Hutt on today. Jocelyn is truly a seasoned marketing and PR expert. She is so great. She is open. She is honest. She is truthful. She is giving you a master class today.

I'm telling you, you guys, it's so many good juicy nuggets of information in here today. You're going to want to listen to this two or three times and please take notes because Jocelyn and I are dropping some amazing learning lessons about how to effectively partner with brands. We talked about the importance of storytelling in your design projects and the timeless value of both regional and national PR.

We talked about how both of those are important. So, whether you are a design professional aiming to grow your business or interested in how just to better promote your work, this episode is for you, and it is packed with actionable tips and insider knowledge to help you succeed. If you know anything about me, you know that marketing and branding and public relations is just something that I could talk about all day.

I think it is just a Fun and interesting topic. I love part with brands on my own projects. I love learning how to better get PR for myself and for brands that I worked with. And so that is why today's conversation was just easy peasy lemon squeezy for me, you guys, it was so much fun. And I think that comes across in our conversation.

I've known Jocelyn for a long time, and we have worked together on lots of projects as well. That is why I trust her implicitly when it comes to sharing all this valuable information with all of you. And I hope that you can learn a bit from some of the tips that I drop inside of the podcast as well. So, let me tell you a bit about Jocelyn so that you know her bio before we get into the interview.

For more than 20 years, Jocelyn Hutt has been involved in the design industry. On the editorial and the PR marketing side, Which she feels gives her a unique ability to act as an agent on behalf of clients. Never far from a keyboard, that is true. She describes her role as being the caretaker of clients legacies.

Connector and networker, she uses her natural curiosity about people, places, and products to find common ground with Everyone. So without further ado, I'm going to stop babbling because Jocelyn is a guru when it comes to PR and marketing, and I want her to showcase all of her expertise with you today.

Jocelyn, welcome to the designer within podcast. I am happy for you to be here. As I mentioned to you just off stage just now, you are my first marketing and PR expert on the podcast. And you know that this is a passion of mine. I love all things marketing and all things branding and all things PR. It excites me to no end.

So I'm so happy you're here. I just said in my intro about you and your bio, but I always want people to hear it in the words of my guests. So tell them about yourself and how you got into this fabulous industry of branding and marketing and PR. All right, in the eighties, I thought for a hot minute that I actually wanted to be a designer and took some classes and courses at the New England School of Art and Design, in fact, and did a little bit, but I quickly realized I loved the products more than the rest of the design industry, so to speak, or trying to find the clients or working with clients.

But I found that I was obsessed with like researching everything from Cove Bay carpeting to like, Commercial work or the right fabrics and I segwayed from that because again, back in the, okay, now it's like the 90s, there was a website called home portfolio, which was, as I call it sort of house before house.

It was the first product database. It did not sell products. It was just there for you to search and save products and maybe go to the brick and mortar. I ended up reaching out to them and ended up becoming the editor of that website and was there for eight years, where again, I was able to just indulge my obsession with products.

It was a curated site and I would go to High Point or I'd go to ICFF and all the shows. This is how long ago that was before people could just send me their JPEGs. They would send CDs of their catalogs and we would upload them to the site and tag it so you could search. That is really a long time ago.

And from there, that website sadly was sold and then it was eventually, I think it's no longer even around. So I segue to the sort of opposite side from editorial. I went to a PR and marketing because I knew already the brands and I knew the agencies that had been pitching me. about these brands and started working for an agency.

And listen, I always loved a good story. I knew I could write over the eight years. I was with that agency. I learned really the basics of PR and using previous marketing that I had at. I used to work in the computer industry, the world portfolio. So I had some marketing background there and it just evolved.

Aren't our journeys just fun? When you step back and look at it, you're like. Huh, that happened because of this and then that led to this. You couldn't lay out necessarily the pathway that any of us are going to follow, but somehow they all interconnect to each other, right? They do. And I still love, as a friend of mine said, she's like, Oh my God, you have a hundred adjectives to describe a toilet.

And I'm like, I probably do. Because it's my job to encourage the editors to write about that toilet or that faucet. Yeah, I love it. And then next week you'll have 105. There's five more brewing right now, I'm sure. I never tire. And that's how I know I'm doing the right thing. It's so wonderful. I'm still blown away when I go and see something interesting.

Or if I'm walking around, I'm like, that could be a faucet. Wow, that should be a fabric. Or that, yeah. As a designer, you're constantly Becoming inspired. I never thought about that. You're right. I just came back from Italy and everywhere I was looking was just inspiration on the design Avenue of things.

But I never really put myself in your shoes thinking that you're also walking around with the same wide eyed wonder looking at things and probably just like, oh my God, click ideas in your head, right? If it stops, that's when I'll know. I'm done, right? So intriguing. I love that. And I think that inspiration can come really from anywhere for so many things, but that's a whole other topic.

But I love that you're being inspired by the products that you're seeing. And in conjunction with that, the designers behind that and the product in the rooms, right? It's all interconnected. It never gets tiring. It's still again, inspiring. And I am always surprised actually if something completely shocks me.

I'm like, I hadn't thought of that. That is incredible. When you think of actually some of the products or the design, we know some designers who I look at their work and I'm like, how did you ever come up with that solution or that idea? And luckily had a client who was like, yes, please. Isn't that the best of both worlds?

Yeah. The carte blanche is a great place to be when and if that happens. So for your company now. Tell everyone what you specialize in and what type of work that you do and types of products that you work with right now. And basically just the gist of who you are as a company. So the Hut Group, which is not even two years old, we are a boutique PR and marketing agency, and we really do.

We do everything that bigger agencies do for clients. We do social, we do PR, we do marketing, we do look books, we'll do e blasts, we'll do social, we'll do your website, we'll come up with your press kits and tell your stories. Because of the work that I had done previously with Home Portfolio and then previous agencies, we are primarily in the, I'll say, luxury building.

Product vertical, primarily also kitchen and bath, but we do have a wonderful custom rug collection client who I love, and we do work with some designers or design build or architects. It's basically the whole design world. I love that. Yeah. Cause again, the inactivity is there between all of it. And I think a lot of designers have this dream of having a product line down the road anyway.

So yeah, it's not always the silver lining with that, but it is a good place to be and a good ambition to have. But so. When a designer is to the point in their career of working with someone like yourself or any PR company, how do they know, first of all, that they're ready? Like, what do they need to have built up to come to you?

Or, and I have a lot of brands who listened as well on the podcast. So maybe they're listening and they're like, okay, I really need to level up my marketing too. What do you look for when someone comes to you, knocks on your door and says, I would like to work with you. Do you have any sort of checklists and guidelines that you follow that you know that they're ready?

Per se, but here's what I would tell people, because of course, selfishly, I think everyone should work with an, with an agency. I think when you're at the point when it comes down to a little bit of the time value of money. If you are spending all of your time trying to do PR and marketing and service your clients and find new clients and try to pitch products or projects, and you're not getting anywhere, you feel like you're just spinning in place.

You should talk to an agency. It doesn't need to be a big agency. The reason people work with agencies is having a built in marketing department. We could talk about the money later, but it's like, if you think of hiring your own marketing person, guess what? If you work for an agency, you have an entire department literally at your beck and call because we know it's a 24 seven lifestyle, right?

The expertise, the media cushions, crisis management, objectivity. I think this sort of plays into it. I know everybody thinks all of their projects, like their children are equally beautiful. You might want. Third party to tell you not this year, not quite there yet in the best possible, most loving way possible.

And so that is what working with an agency is. We are your default marketing and PR agency, and it becomes such a personal relationship. It is. And I've seen how you work with brands and I seen, and you and I have worked together on countless projects as well. I see the passion that's there. And when, when you say that it is literally part of you, I really think it's in your DNA, honestly, like it literally is a part of who you are.

And I don't think you can ever turn off that side of your brain, first of all. So that's to you personally, I think that's just a big credit to you that you just do such a good job with that. But the other part of that as well is. And you brushed on it just a bit, but I think the relationships that agencies like yourself have are priceless.

It is priceless for your clients, for you to have this 15, 20 year backup of relationships that you have cultivated and developed, because I'll just tell you when I'm out here and I'm there and I mentioned you, of course I know, Jocelyn, of course I know, like everybody who you are, because you have integrated yourself into the industry so well.

So talk to me about those relationships and how that really does help your clients. It is. A relationship business on all sides. It doesn't matter if you're talking to an editor or a manufacturer's rep or the showroom people where you buy your products or even look at your products. And of course the brands themselves, I have stressed this to every agency I've worked with clients who left agencies, like they didn't feel like they were getting that personal one on one input.

It takes, particularly on the media side. With people moving around so much with magazines closing and then reopening, and it takes a really long time. And it is of course, for any agency, our database of media is, it is our gold. We work on it every day. We build it every day. We send things out. We try to ask the editors, are we doing okay?

Are we giving you too much information? Not enough. Please. And we try, we work very hard at trying to respect their time, which is what if we talk about pitching later, that's the big thing. You need to be patient, but you also need to really respect their time. And it is just, it's the ongoing, it's the ongoing situation.

Joan Rivers once said, you need to be nice to everybody on your way up. Everyone from the doorman up. Because on your way down, you'll want to, and I'm like, that is so true, which is why I have very close relationships with, again, the manufacturers reps for my brands. They're the foot soldiers. They see everything out there.

They're out all the time. So I try to listen and respect everybody. I never thought about you going so granular as to even speaking with the reps, but that makes total sense because they are the front line, right? They're the front line of the business. There are, yeah. Do they help you glean any information about maybe altering things?

Like if you're, if when you're getting this feedback from people, so let's say you go into a project with a client and you're like, I see you. I understand you. I know what you should have, and the client says, yes, I agree with that. How often do you have to pivot that to, based upon the worldly situations, based upon the client's need, based upon feedback that you've been given from some?

If I think that's something that's going to be holding. The client back, I'll tell them right away. I'll just say, listen, I was just at a showroom and here's what I'm hearing. And I don't know. And I'm just reporting that to you. That your manufacturer's rep was not there. They did not give them the most up to date information or the designers are bitching about X, Y, or Z.

Can you have, yeah. So I tried to be the eyes and ears when I can. The hardest conversation with any client is to tell them that their photography needs to be better. That is a very hard. conversation. Also like your projects, you love all your children the same, but yeah. Yeah. They come to you with this little portfolio, this little, I just picture like a manila envelope with all these little pretty pictures in it.

And you're like, okay, we'll give you 10 percent of that. And let's just reshoot 90%. I know. And it's true. It's true. But that's the reason for having an expert and a professional like yourself and your company is to do that. So when you say there's a team of people behind the scenes working for you, that is what you do.

And so I think that part of that mutual respect comes from the client saying, okay, Jocelyn, I see you. I hear you. Let's make that change. Do you get, do you get a lot of flack from people who are like, no, we just spent 10, 000 on these photos. This is why. So I have a partner who is our creative director and I could not, we would not be an agency without him.

When people used to say to me, hug me not on your own. And I'm like, I could do a little freelance, but I could not, I don't know Canva, I don't know InDesign, I don't know Photoshop, but Michael does. And Michael has. the greatest, softest touch. He has to give feedback, um, because he speaks the language of graphic design.

Where I will always edit your writing or have mine edited. I'm not that egotistical to think my writing's that amazing. Which is why Michael and I are such a great team. But I will always send him in like, Okay, you need to tell them. This e blast is not really And he just has a very gentle way of doing it again because he's speaking the language of graphic design.

That's great to have someone who can Not the good cop, bad cop necessarily, but the good news, bad news situation, right? Or he'll try. We've had clients where we're like, Oh, can you try to fix it? And he'll try to When we're submitting for awards. Michael, let me put it this way, Michael, there isn't an image that comes in or out of our agency that he does not touch in some way.

It could be something as simple as formatting it for various platforms, square, horizontal, or literally changing the wallpaper on the background. We don't need wallpaper. Let's just make it white or whatever. Right. That is a whole, a lot of what, again, that's what he does. Yeah, I know Brene Brown has a quote, it's something like clear is kind.

And I think that being clear and giving clarity to people about what you look for in what they're needing to give to you to make them successful, it is, it's not a harsh, it can be harsh to say, but, and that's even to us for clients. I can see how you love your grandma's dresser, but it is not the right piece.

So Jocelyn on the subject of what you're looking for when you're wanting to partner with a new client and also what that new client needs to have in mind. There are so many things that I would think you would look for when you're considering partnering with someone and working with someone in your firm.

But tell me about what you look for and then I know we touched on photography earlier and so we can piggyback off of that. But tell me what you look for and then some specifics so that people can actually. Start to prepare for that. Okay. Whether it's a brand or a designer architect, I feel compelled to help everybody.

If you call me or you want to work with us, you have to know that we really do want to help you be the best brand or designer you can be. I do want to clarify something I said, lest I sound cavalier. People spend a lot of money on photography. When I said not all of your children are equally beautiful.

The reason you work with a third party. Or an agency is because you'd want me to say that I see something you may want to project a but I might see something in project be this is really intriguing to me. Tell me what the challenges were here. I see 5 different ways we can split this up and we'll pitch this room.

We'll pitch this. You use sustainable products here. You used to really inventive or creative solution here. And so, you know, you're too close to the projects usually, which is which you have to be, but I'm. Close to the editors whom I know, and I know what they're looking for. Somewhere in the middle, we meet the best clients are the ones who take their ego out of it for that moment and let us help them choose the projects, products, or brands, or even themselves to pitch them in the way that we think will get them the best result.

And I would think that's helpful for people listening because you're right. We do get very close. to our project and they are our babies and we are birthing that baby on that final installation. And we're like, Oh my God, she's here. Isn't she the most beautiful thing in the world? But I love that there's this objective opinion in your eyes where you can sort of pull back and say, okay, that's great for this.

This could work for that. But also does it depend on the needs at the time? Cause maybe at this point in the industry right now, sustainability is important. So let's focus on that project. And then the other one could be used at a later date. date for something else or does that play a part in how you choose projects as well to promote?

Yes, very much. It is a combination of you're too busy doing the work. I'm always sussing out what's going on in the industry as a whole, right? You want us to be both looking at things from 60, 000 feet up and also the details. Um, because we have every editorial calendar of every publication that we can get our hands on, we know.

What they're looking for. And so it's easier for us to see that in your project. Let's use sustainability again and plug it in. You know, for example, we know Metropolis magazine there, that is their number one mission is that they promote sustainable design. Anytime I can pitch or plug that in for a certain month, I'll try to do it again.

But yes, I want it to be timeless and yet timely. That's great. That's really helpful. I also have learned over the year to not just photograph the entire room as a whole, like get those specifics, look at the appliances, look at the faucets, look at the rug that you use, right? If I were to give a piece of advice to people, it would be to remember the details in your space.

First of all, choose a great photographer. Like that's number one, right? Find a great photographer, but also direct the photographer and say, you know what? I want to possibly. Promote this particular product and let's go into detail. Let's put some vegetables frying on the range and make sure that we can show that later.

Or let's zoom in on the finish of that faucet or that tile, right? Because those are things that you're there, you're shooting it, and you already have them in your repertoire when you're done. And then, hopefully, they're good enough for you to use for your promotional side of things. Does that make sense or no?

I love that idea, and this is what I know about you. When you have a photographer, your list of art direction or shots is probably way longer than theirs as it should be. But this leads me to my other soapbox, if you will, because, you know, there's that saying, whatever ABC always be closing. Mine is always be collaborating.

Oh my gosh. Always be collaborating. If you are working with a brand. And you should, we could talk about that most definitely when you're taking photographs, the brand is going to want as many detail shots of their beautiful faucet or tile as you can provide. And in fact, it's most likely that it's in the contract between us.

That is an unsung aspect to help designers elevate themselves. As a publicist who works with brands, we're always scouring Instagram posts. If you've tagged our client, you probably get a DM from us right away saying, thank you, can we either repost or would you possibly use our product in your next project?

So that is my number advice, other than, as you said, I heard a great photographer. Yeah, I love that. It's a force multiplier. It really is. Did you get the power of, you know, the brand and it's. PR agency, we will do a case study. We will pitch your project if you use their product. Ooh, there's so many good things in there for people to extract and remember because it lets them on the inside of your brain of what you're looking for on behalf of your brand.

And let's just talk about brand collaborations now that we're on that subject, because I have found that as you know, we've worked together on some things, but as you know, I love brand collaborations and I think that it's a no brainer. It is a win win for every single person involved. Like as a designer.

We love the product. We've used the product probably multiple times, and we just want to let the world know this is a great product because a lot of the general public look to designers for inspiration and what are we using, even if they're not working with a designer, just as a consumer. They love to know what designers are using.

So that alone is a huge aspect of how many legs these photographs can have. What I love about brand collaborations is that if you're lucky enough to get it on the upfront, right? So if you're lucky enough to partner with an agency like yourself before. You do the photography and before you start working on the project, that is ideal.

But I also love that you gave some tips on like, if you didn't work with a brand prior, then here's what you need to do. First of all, the photography. And I think video is important these days for that sort of video is really coming into play in a lot of ways. So if you're all set up doing your photography and you have everything beautiful, the flowers are there.

The wine glasses are there. The fruit is on the kitchen counter. Go ahead and hire a videographer as well. That will. allow you to have more things in your arsenal to promote. But the thing I wanted to remind people is that you said, if you're not currently working with a brand, tag that brand in your post, because it draws more eyeballs to that for everyone.

Have you had brands not even aware of a certain designer? And then suddenly they see their products in their projects. And then the brand is like, wow, I really want to work with them. Has that ever happened? Here's the dredge work of marketing or PR is that we go through the magazines and under the source.

If I see, you know, in a kitchen project or bathroom or whatever. And I'm like, Oh, they sourced my client's tub. Let me reach out to that architect or designer. Hi, I see you use my client's tub, blah, blah, blah. That's in print, which is a harder find, but online, if they haven't tagged it and I'm just seeing it in my feed, it's always sad, like, why, why didn't you tag us?

And sometimes I will reach out. And say, is that a stone forest tub in there, that hand carved marble tub? Because we would love to work with you again, if possible. And, or, and, they, this is great for photographers. We quite often will reach out to say, can you give us the name of the photographer who would like to buy that image?

For use on their site and their marketing materials. Well, and that's a whole other Avenue. What is your arrangement with your photographer? Right? Like to me, that is, I did do like probably two hours on that because I know that can get to be a slippery slope of, did they approve it? Do you allow it? And I try to do as much of that on the front end with my photography agreement to make sure all those T's are crossed and I's are dotted.

But what are some of the benefits that you find for a designer, for an architect, for a landscape design, for whomever? to collaborate with a brand. I know immediately some of the ones that come to mind for me, but on your side of things, what are some of the benefits from a designer and architect and anyone else in the industry partnering with a brand and then collaborating with them now and then in the future too?

Quite a few things. Many of the clients would offer further discount better than you'd even get through your showroom. Although many times the brands would prefer you go to the showroom. They'll then try to offer additional discounts. They want you to use their products. We've had designers offer a sneak peek.

Hey, we're looking at this finish. What do you think? Or we're going to be releasing a new product in Q2 of next year. Would you like to see it? We're going to send you. You get to be a little bit of an insider. And if they do, for example, a lot of our clients do trips to the factories, of course, and who wouldn't love to go to the Vola factory in Denmark, but, or, or anywhere, I mean, I see that does seem to be a big thing for a lot of brands, right?

They're designers, they're flying designers everywhere, which is great for both. It's great for the brand recognition. It elevates them. And then the designers become repeat customers, right? You want everyone to continue to use the products and work on projects that will be pitched by us or even by them.

If they're, if you're working with your own. And then, but you're using a prop, we're happy to collaborate on that as well. I'm not going to step on your publicist toes by saying, don't talk to Elle Decor, you have a better relationship. Please do talk to Elle Decor, always be collaborating on my side as well.

Oh, that's really interesting. I never thought about that aspect of you working with someone else's publicist to garner a deal and to promote the product because yes, the designer gets it. exposure from their project being published in a magazine or wherever. But also your client, your tub or your tile, your faucet, or your light fixture also gets promotion simultaneously.

I worked with a very well known architect who had a lighting brand that was my client at the time. I worked hand in hand with his agency where we had, we shared our lists of like, who are we pitching it to? I'm going to do the trades. Okay. You do the shelter publications. You know, we're announcing it this way and it worked out quite well.

You know, we'll submit it to the awards, but, you know, give me their headshot, you know, that kind of thing. And so, yeah, was like just having an extra set of hands. And also probably more contacts that you may have, like, as you said, more of a contact with Sally, and you may have more of a contact with Bob, right?

And it just works out perfect for everybody. What? Would you say to someone, because I know a lot of people think it's mostly based on social media, but I don't find that to be true. I personally don't think you have to have a million followers to collaborate with a brand or to work with an agency like yourself.

Tell me your thoughts on that and what you look for when you are looking at someone. If you are scrolling Instagram and you're like, Oh my gosh, there's my tub. Are there any downsides to that? This, are there are people who, you know, might not be as. Best of a candidate for it as, as some others, I would say we look for outside of the number of followers on any of your platforms, it's engagement.

If you are someone who is taking the time, even if a random follower is like, that's great. And you've engaged with them. I'd rather see that even if you only have 200 followers, I want to help you grow. So that is a much better indicator that you're going to work as hard. On behalf of the brand and yourself.

Oh, that's so good. That is so good for people who are just starting out or for people who may have not put as much time into social media. And that's all kinds of social media Instagram and of course LinkedIn, but I agree. I think that interaction and i've had people write to me and say I can't believe that you responded.

I'm like, well, i'm a human being of course I'm gonna respond to your comment like thank you because you took time out of your days to comment That is a big pet peeve of mine on social media is when you see dozens of comments and they're just not even responding whatsoever that person Should be given the pat on the back for commenting on your post.

Right? So I think that is great. And also I think there are that whole micro influencer market of people who are very good on their social media, but they have smaller number of followers. I always tell people, if you have 500 followers, would you not be happy if 500 followers were standing in your kitchen at a dinner party and you were telling them about your business?

When you see them at. Trade shows or conferences. I'm happy to have the conversation always. And if you're not ready, we could talk about doing something next year. Let's talk about it and see what we can do now or later. I would never turn anyone away. I, you know, I shouldn't say that because I, we don't like to do the, uh, like the pay to play, if it's going to cost us money to put your product or you somewhere else.

The no. The no from me, as they say. I'm with you on that. It just feels icky to me when it gets into those waters, but you just segued into something that was going to be my next question. The power of in person meetings and conversations, introductions. We all tend to hide behind our social media platforms sometimes and think that, you know, I can post something and everything's going to change.

Yes, it might, and it might. Catch the eye of someone like Jocelyn, but there's not that guarantee. I personally love a grassroots effort campaign where you are in someone's face and you're shaking their hand and you say, Oh my gosh, I love your product so much. Talk about that aspect of it and just the power of those really great connections that you can only get with someone in person.

Well, that's why I think trade shows. Continue to this day during the pandemic, we went into the online version or everyone thought, okay, it's going to be different now they're dead, but just like print magazines, no, they are not dead. They've come back and it is the best way for brands to interact with their clients or potential clients.

And for you to see again, the new finishes or the touch and feel of any kind of product. If I were a designer who wanted to work with a brand, or if you were a designer who had used a brand. And then you're at, let's say, well, just a kitchen, a bath, shower, I guess. And you see that they're exhibiting, bring over your iPhone with your portfolio and say, look, I used your product and you'll get, we will roll out the red carpet for you.

Even if you don't want to collaborate right now, we will ask you, can we put you on our list? Would you like to learn more? Can we collaborate in the future? We'll have the conversations. And now you've made a good connection. The same goes with magazines. I know it's harder for designers. If you're at a showroom and they're having a panel where the editor of a regional publication is there, you should try to say hello and ask that editor, I have some projects to show you what's the best way, you know, and, and I'm telling you, the editor would then say, don't feel like it has to be totally finished.

Send scouting shots or whichever rooms are done. The other thing you have to have in any of this is patience. It can take, right, right? It can take you to see a project. Even if we pitch case studies and they're inundated with beautiful projects, you have to really just like buying furniture, buy it and then forget about it for like 14 weeks.

That's good stuff. And I think to add on to that, if you're at a trade show, K biz or market, if you don't. Have that product in your repertoire yet. If you don't have them in a project, but you're in love with it, I would still go up and say, Oh my gosh, I love your product so much. I have a project upcoming.

That would be perfect for that. How can we possibly work together? That is also a way for people to start to work with a brand. As you said, there are incentives that brands give. If you are a collaboration partner with a brand, you can probably get it less expensive if you have a great project they're excited about.

And if there's an angle, right, if there's an angle that they've never. possibly promoted before, but I do find that if you, if you are, cause I, I know I've seen a lot of tile and a lot of faucets, kitchen hood, you know, all the things that these trade shows that I'm like, I don't have a project for that yet, but by golly, I'm going to get a project for that because I love it so much.

How does that future casting work? to you. That's great. And that's the whole reason for designers to go to high point earth shows because you want that inspiration. If you approach the brand or the brand spokesperson, they'll give you either a showroom or a dealer near you. If you want to see more, since they cannot have their whole catalog of products in the booth, you know, and, and if you're lucky, it's a showroom that you.

So now again, it's just all about, right, creating and then cementing these relationships. And I think everyone has their laser focus on getting a licensing deal with their brand. I don't always think that is the be all end all. I don't think that's always the epitome of success with a brand because you can, I've seen designer friends and I've done it before to design a vignette.

At trade show for a brand and you are the exclusive designer for that. I've had designer friends. They've designed an entire booth of large brands at trade shows. Their name is slathered all over that. Right? So I think there's different ways of partnership. Uh, can you think of any others that would be ideal for designers and architects, as far as varying shades of gray for partnerships?

Give that some more thought, unless you want to really collaborate on white papers or articles. Many times editors. We'll ask as we're doing a trends piece on blah, blah, blah. And I'll say a great, I'd like to submit some quotes. If I know that you've used it, I could say, and I'm going to submit a quote from John because he's used a product in this way, which I think speaks to whatever the article is going to be about.

That's a good point. You can get. Publish in a different way where your expertise, you're the authority figure, right? That's wonderful. I love it. So when someone's considering working with a marketing firm, a PR firm, and they're thinking, Oh my gosh, I think I'm ready. I'm not sure, but they're worried about the financial part of it.

What is the financial part? And what are some of the costs that someone might incur when they're going to work with an agency such as yourself? All right. Now i'm going to try not to sound like The politician who doesn't answer questions, but we prefer to work on a monthly retainer. It's a specific amount when it could be anywhere from 5, 000 up to 15, 000, just for the retainer.

You have to really think of it as if you hired a marketing person, what would you pay them? That's what this is. You're getting, I need 30 years of expertise. My director's 20 years, my creative director. My intern, you know, you're getting the entire department at your beck and call. And I am telling you, being talked to my clients yesterday, there's no such thing as a weekend when it comes to PR marketing.

Have we done a one off project where we're just working with you on one thing? Yeah, probably. For us, that's the reverse of wanting to collaborate with you in the hopes that we do a good job and then maybe you'd hire us as a retainer client later. So I'm always happy to have the conversation that is the biggest bite.

So you do have to look at your budget that way, you know, the, the big costs would be of course, the agency and photography, but you know, I know, well, we also have a social media person who works for me, so, you know, that could be part of the retainer, which then just takes. All that stuff off your desk. You don't have to think about it anymore.

Right. That's very smart because if you look at it in the perspective of adding another team member, first of all, the cost of then going into taxes and benefits and all the things, right? So it's great to think that under one umbrella, you could encompass all of those things as a publicist for someone and take care of that.

And as you said, it is kind of 24 seven when you guys are working. I've seen it. I know that for a fact I've submitted things last second because the magazine had something changed or needed to be adapted. So there's always opportunities, but what I love about a publicist and having someone on my side is knowing that workload is taking off my plate.

I don't have to put my mental. strain on promoting my brand because someone else is doing it for me. And just like yourself is so passionate about it, more passion than I could ever muster up even for things we're doing within my company. So I love that there is someone, as you said, who can devote themselves.

To that client all the time. And if you are a designer architect, someone thinking, Oh, I want to partner with this brand. Do you suggest going to your website and other PR firms website? Or do you suggest going to the brand's website to find out how to reach out to that person? Right. You could go to the brand and ask them and they will probably.

Refer you to whichever agency they're working for or even again on social media that happens quite quite a bit Where people will just DM one of the clients who are doing social for and I'm like, oh they're interested Let me research that person so it doesn't have to be as complicated as we think it Yeah, make it like, yeah, just keep it simple, stupid.

That's what I tell myself all the time. Right. We're all friendly here. So for people who are, are there other things that we should look for, for wanting to get published and for wanting to get our name out there? Are there other things other than, I think we've beaten photography into the ground. We've got that, right?

Are there other things that we should consider for that? I love, for instance, and this is very simple, but I love blog writing and I know that that's a little antiquated, but it's also coming back as well. And what I liked about it is. Much like social media, it adds to your SEO. And then you could find that person.

If someone has a Google alert set up, then it can pop up in their inbox. So has that ever, you know, are those, are there little ways to promote their, their projects too? Like what other things can you do? LinkedIn, LinkedIn is really big. I advise clients, we try very hard not to appear like we're selling.

If you have an amazing project that you just finished. You just wrapped it in a bow, put it on LinkedIn. I think, and you touched on it earlier with video, which you could use on LinkedIn, Instagram stories, YouTube. So here's the thing, fail fast. Try it. If it doesn't work, stop doing it. That's a good point.

And also I think enjoy what you're doing. Like, for instance, TikTok is not my fav I'll just say it's not. I feel like I turn it on and everyone is yelling at me immediately about something. That's what I feel, so. But for me, that's not my avenue. Instagram, I love. LinkedIn, occasionally. And then Facebook, still.

Everyone poo poos Facebook, but I still feel Really positive about Facebook and really the interactions there are substantial when you use Facebook, I just suggest doing what you enjoyed. Cause if you don't enjoy creating that reel or that post or that video, then you're not going to keep doing it. And also I think the work is going to suffer and what you're putting out there, but your advice of just kind of keeping it simple is great.

And I think that we do overcomplicate it and we think, Oh, we have to make this the most. Perfect video ever. This has to be the most perfect post ever. Done is better than perfect, right? Just get it done rather than trying to make it perfect. Don't let great be the enemy of good. Sometimes the other thing I was actually going to recommend is for designers in particular to join other groups of designers, right?

Like on thinking of, uh, speaking of Facebook, like interior design community, Lori Lazor, you know, she's doing an amazing job of lifting. All the designers, giving them tools and you can ask questions. There are some Facebook groups that I'm a member of, even though I am not a kitchen and bath designer. I look at the questions they're asking each other.

First of all, I'm like, you people really are detail oriented and really, I mean, we're talking. Eighth of an inch, you know, critted cabinet like wow, but it's it's the community And so I think you will also find opportunities to meet other like minded people or an event near you You hadn't thought about or maybe you're not on that list and you want to be on that list So that I think is Something that I did not do early on in my career, even, but now I realize, Oh, we'd be collaborating.

That's the other side of it. That's very good. Lori is amazing at interior design community. And I love that community over competition aspect of what we do. I think that's the best way to approach it. And there's plenty enough to go around. What also happens when you start collaborating with a community of people.

Is that other brands and possibly agencies like yourself start to take notice and say, Oh, look at that person. They are becoming an authority figure in the industry. And then I think that's another way to take notice. If you see someone pop up on a panel constantly, or they're on a video call or they're hosting something, or they're always giving good advice on IDC, something like that.

I think that's another way to get yourself noticed. Do you agree with that? I agree completely. And that costs you nothing. That is completely free. That is your time and your expertise. In the free column, that is a freebie right there. Yeah. So when you're, we've talked about what you look for. One thing I thought was so interesting when our pre conversation was talking about how to become a publicist's favorite, how to become that favorite client of a publicist, what do you look for when you are already working with someone and then they're continuing the relationship with you, how do we really become our PR firm's favorite client?

Wow. That is a great question. I do appreciate and, and as with everything is a relationship business, right? And so, and I, I do the clients that are with me right now. I've known for a very long time and I get to know them personally as well. You have to trust us. We're not going to embarrass your brand that you've worked hard on.

You know, we may throw 5 things out at you and you may say, I hate them all, but go ahead and try. Because you know better and you should have an ego about your area of expertise, but try to be open to the possibility that we might know a little bit more about how to talk about your narrative than you do.

You're doing your work. Like you said, you're laser focused. It's an honorable thing for me to tell your story. That's how I view it. You're doing the work. We're then turning that into something and telling the story for you. It's really a great honor. So you have to just trust us. This one piece is appropriate for anyone you're working with or anyone you're pitching, meaning editors.

Back to the patience thing. Please have patience. You know that editors are like, please don't follow up. We will contact you. And they, they really mean it. And I would say if we've sent out a press release on your product, I'll tell you the minute it gets picked up, you don't have to ask me if you've seen it and approved it and I've sent it out.

Other than that. Just be nice. Well, I love all my clients equally. I love all my clients equally. What's impressed me about a very good agency like yourself and so many others that I've met is that, you know, the backstory of the client. I have been at a private dinner sponsored by the PR firms and there was the brand there.

The PR firm. knew more about a product and was able to sell that specific chair or whatever we were talking about that night better than the client. And I think that is a piece that people don't think about is that you really do become a part of the brand and the company and the person that you're working with.

What do you do? To acclimate to that brand, to learn about them, to learn their story, because I agree with you. Story, story, story is the key to someone remembering you and remembering your company and your brand. But what do you do as part of your research with product brand client? We take product knowledge, the way that they train all of their salespeople.

We go through that training. It is a process where we have to go through everything that we can about the products, including the price books and the finishes and learn about them the same way if they were going to install us in a showroom. To be a salesperson, that is the first thing we do with a designer.

Tell us your origin story. Talk about a project where you learned the most or project you thought was terrible. But again, you learned a lot and we just kind of keep going and keep going, you know, I guess, peeling the onion because you don't even know. What the beauty of some of your projects might be, you might be telling me again about the wallpaper.

And again, I'm looking at the corner of the table or the leg. I'm like, why did you choose that? There's such a beautiful leg, the curve there. Why did you, you know, when you're like, Oh, I totally forgot about that. So, you know, it is our job to just, that's the, if the 60, 000 feet up is where the editors, we know what they're looking for.

The, you know, the minutia is where we learn the most about you. And it goes into the Rolodex of our brains. If an editor gives me this Slightest indication of something they're even thinking of working on. And instantly I'm like, going to my head, like that'll work. They haven't seen that. Have they seen that?

No, they probably should see that. And that is, that is the conversation going through my head or with my partner, like with Mario, we're like, okay, that didn't work. What else can we do? And we just go through it. That's good. I love to have a story. Stories are the things that people remember. I always try on a client's project to figure out what that story is for my client.

And then when I come to people. who are talented in taking that further, like yourself, I say, here is the story. Here is the angle that I see. Here's the synopsis of this project. Here's what I think might get people's attention. The brands we used, it's designed by a famous architect, the view of the ocean, or we designed this space because the daughter has a learning.

Issue. And we tried to resolve that. I suggest starting out from the beginning, from the get go and picking up on little nuggets from your clients to build that story. I'm sure that would help you. If someone came to you and said, here's what I think would be a great angle. Here's a great story. And you can take that and build upon on that story too.

Right? Absolutely. We had an acoustic lighting client who is telling us about working with a school where some of the children had autism and noise was a huge issue for them. And so I was like, Oh my God, they have to really like build this, you know, in a way that there's not noises like banging, pinging off of, you know, these hard surfaces.

I love that. There was a lighting that's not a client, like a smart home lighting control thing, probably control four. And they, one of their projects that I just, this was fascinating to me. They were working with a client who was very religious on Friday night. For Shabbat, all the lights, you cannot use any electric.

And so they had it wired that at sundown, it shut everything down. Well, I was like, that is so cool. There's a story for everything. Story for everything. Yeah. I looked at us as a solution. We're problem solvers for our clients. And then. Brands are problem solvers for clients and also for designers. As a designer, I love when a brand has addressed an issue that I've been dealing with forever, you know, with the finish on a faucet staining or whatever the issue might be.

I love that a brand has addressed that issue. And then as a designer, I can now address that issue. For my client too, but I think that whole problem solving aspect of it is really important because as you said, you look at that and think, Oh my gosh, we as designers might take it for granted. We did what they needed.

We solved the problem. You might look at that and say, Oh my God, that is marketing gold, right? It is marketing gold. Absolutely. If you are talking to the brand and telling them the challenge you need this solution for. If they've heard it once, they're going to hear it more than once. When it comes time for them to develop a new product, they're going to think about that.

And that is sometimes how products are designed. One little tip that I do too. I come up to a brand and say, you know what? I love your products, but this rug would look so much better if we did this material on it, or this finish would look so much more marketable. Sometimes that will wake up that brand to think, Oh my gosh, you've been thinking as much about my company as I have.

And then that is a great intro too. If you have something that you're like, Oh, this would solve a problem for 10 of my clients right now, off the bat. If this, if a brand addressed this issue, this issue. Come to that brand with that solution, their ears might perk up and they might be like, Oh yeah, perfect.

I would love to talk to you more about that. So that could be an end too. Absolutely. Absolutely. As you've said, it's problems and solution. That's, that's what it is, you know, with the outcome being something beautiful, functional. right? Livable and long lasting. I'm not so trendy that next year you'll go, that was a mistake.

Trends are that double edged sword with me where I'm like, I can see yes, but also I try to design myself as timeless as possible and as long lasting as possible, right? Because no one wants to rip out the tile in their bathroom two years from now. from now. Right. Nobody wants to go down that rabbit hole.

So I do think that that's important. One thing you touched on earlier, which I had a problem with when I first started working with PR was patience. I did it. I know now it is a long game. You're not just going to send out something and get an answer right away. If someone needs an article written or whatever, those are, of course, are quick.

more quick turnaround than I'm getting a full home published in the magazine. But I think that patience is something we really need to drive home to people for current clients, for new clients, for people who are wanting to work with a publicist and they think that it's going to be an overnight sensation.

It's just not, but it doesn't mean you're not working hard behind the scenes. I know for any client, we have a three month honeymoon period where they love us. We're great. And then, of course, they're wondering what we're doing. Meanwhile, again, we're setting everything up from our side. The first month of any relationship, it has to just be really the nuts and bolts.

Really learning everything. We might be redoing your bio, your press kit, putting things together, doing a contact sheet of the images we want to send to editors or the stories, talking to editors, saying we have a new client. Would you like to see X, Y, or Z? Yes or no? So yeah, there's always something going on.

It's like a monthly report card. We do reports quarterly. Oh, good. Previous agencies monthly. And I thought that's really scary. That's a lot of pressure because an editor can change something. I thought for sure it was going in the May issue. And then they're like, no, we moved it to now. I have nothing to show you for May.

Well, you're at the mercy of the editor or a decision maker at whatever outlet you're working with. But what I just want people to remember is that you're constantly working. It really is something that was a hard pill to swallow for me, that it was not going to be. Overnight success, overnight accolades, whatever, just give it time.

And you're working with people that you trust in this endeavor, trust them to do what they're doing. To your point about adding it on as another team member, we hire contractors, tile installers, electricians, and plumbers, people who are experts at that. That should also. Move into your realm of things too.

When we're considering working with a firm, do you have any questions that you would have someone ask when they're thinking about working with a firm, such as yourself with an agency? What would I come to you with? What questions would I have coming to you to know that you're the right fit for me? It's funny.

Cause I, I always ask potential clients, have you worked with other agencies because they're, you know, I always want to hear what they liked or didn't like. I would, I would hope that they would ask me. What type of clients that I have, you know, how do I like to work or that, you know, am I open to learning how they work if they're a night owl and they're going to send me things in the middle of the night, would we help them with everything from again, finding a photographer to, you know, can we do help them put together an e blast?

Yes, we can do all that. I would want them to ask me to explain in great detail everything that we do for clients and how we work for other designers, how we work with architects. What is the difference? Do we work primarily in the luxury shelter vertical? Or if they've done some commercial work, do we have no editors on that side?

Have we done institutional or educational projects? I want them to get the fullest picture of my world. Did that answer your question? I think that's wonderful because I just want people to have expectations set up to understand what expectations we are to have when working with you. If you're not primarily print, but they come to you thinking that you're primarily print, for instance, not you specifically, but someone, and they're more of other media, other outlets, other avenues of PR, then that's not going to be a fit.

So I think if the person just, what you're saying is they should know who they are first and what they're looking for, and then just make sure that the firm that they're speaking with knows. that they can take care of that for that person rather than going into it thinking, Oh, they're going to get me on a television show.

That is something that is a you thing going into it as a future client. That is a you thing to look inspectively to know what you're looking for and then to ask the right questions to your point to say, can this other. company that I want to partner with supply that need for me, right? Actually, you brought up a bunch of good points because if they are thinking they only want print or they only want digital, we're fine either way.

Just make sure that you let me know. The other touchy subject is when a prospective client says, here are the top publications that we want to see ourselves in. And so that goes back to the, let me look at your projects and see if we are there yet. Please also know it could take a year. for ArcDigest to even look at it.

And that is a tough conversation. I have PR friends who basically say, if you came to me with this list, then I'm not your girl. I'm not the firm for you. And I think too, don't underestimate the power of regional or local PR, because I've had sometimes even more business and more inquiries from a local publication as a national one.

That is an excellent point. Thank you for bringing that up, because particularly for designers who want more work. And if you are picked up in the regional magazine or go to their events, get on their mailing list, go to their events, you would be more likely to meet other potential designers or showrooms that you might want to work with.

I think it really helps. The regional stuff is very important. Even as simple as if a brand has a newsletter that they send out to their database, and it could be. 20, 000 people. And they mentioned your project in that newsletter or give a quote in that. I think that even has a lot of legs to it. So I guess what I'm trying to say is don't hang your hat only on an 80 or, you know, elder core or whatever.

Yes, those are fantastic, but I know from firsthand experience, the value of these smaller things that can turn into much bigger things down the road. And I know you as a PR firm have those. Contacts as well. It supports the showrooms, the local showrooms as well as the local designers. So yes, I have an entire list of the city.

Yeah, exactly. I just wanted people to hear it from your own list because I wanted people to know that it does run the gamut of contacts that you are nurturing and growing. It's not just talking to the big boys. It's also nurturing. You're on the cover. If you're on the cover of New England home, yay you.

That is a huge accomplishment. Humongous. I'll tell you the photographer. He's all because I know he gets excited about that. He's like they chose it for the cover. So yes, everyone likes the validation. Everyone likes it. I agree. Even with just the, I, I would pay a firm to keep up with the turnover in, in these, in these brands because in these magazines, because all that it seems to be changing so constantly someone's being promoted and you're like, Oh, now I've nurtured that relationship, but now she's going to be the editor.

So I think that is also something that we as the lay person cannot keep on top of as well as a. firm like yourself, but this has all been so good. So juicy for people to take away. I think that, you know, your, your highlights on collaboration, brand collaborations on what you're looking for, what the other person should be looking for are really good things that people can take now if they're not ready.

to work with an agency like yourself, then maybe they could start those steps to do so and baby step their way up to getting to the point where they can. I really do believe in giving things away. I have a lot of designer colleagues and because I get a lot of reporter requests, like help a reporter out, I will pass that off.

They're not my clients. Just like, this is good for you. They're looking for a kitchen designer to talk about something. There's no reason that I cannot be helpful to you, even if you're not hiring me. You send me things all the time and I'm so appreciative. Yes. I'm one of those lucky recipients, but it all goes back to caring.

It all goes back to lifting up the industry as a whole, caring about everybody on every level. And I think that when we all look at what we do as helping each other out and promoting everyone at the same time, sometimes even down to the installer, even to the trades person who worked on the project, right?

I think that is mind blowing that we can elevate. Not only the designer who finished it and the brand who was on the products on it, but down to, you know, Joe, who did the tile installer. Please. That person is worth his weight in gold. This is, I think we could talk for hours on PR marketing because it's a passion of mine and I love it.

And I know you obviously love it. And as a career choice, but for people who are wanting to know more about your company and about what you're doing and all the good things, where can they find you? Our website is a little bit more than a landing page. But not a lot more. It is hut group, and you can always email me at jocelyn at hut group.

Perfect. J O C E L Y N. Well, Jocelyn, thank you for sharing your in today. I know that every listener and viewer on YouTube is going to enjoy this. If at least. Get their mind moving in the direction of the great tips you've given today. That alone as a listener would be valuable, valuable, valuable, but also to prepare them to the point of calling an agency like yourself and actually working together.

So thank you for sharing your knowledge and your insight. Thank you, Jocelyn. Always great to talk to you, John. Thanks for tuning in to the designer within podcast. I hope you found today's episode. Inspiring and full of actionable ideas to help you design a better home, a thriving career or simply a more intentional life.

For more tips, resources, and free downloads to support the design of your home, or the design of your career, head on over to johnmcclain. co. That's johnmcclain. co. And remember, to make big changes on the outside, you need to start within. Until next time, I'm John McClain. Stay creative and stay inspired.