58: The Power of Processes & The Journey to Design Success with Sara Lynn Brennan (Part 1)

In this episode of the 'Designer Within' podcast, John McClain interviews Sara Lynn Brennan, a successful interior designer who transitioned from being a middle and high school science teacher to running her own multi-million dollar design business. 

Sara shares her early business mistakes and emphasizes the importance of establishing structured processes and having hard conversations with clients. She discusses her journey from DIY projects to handling large-scale renovations, the evolution of identifying luxury clients, and the significance of clear, value-driven client communication. 

Sara also highlights the pivotal role of social media in maintaining visibility and attracting clients. The episode includes a deep dive into Sara's business approach, client management strategies, and her perspective on authenticity and transparency in the design industry.

00:00  Welcome to The Designer Within Podcast

02:18 Reflecting on 2024 and Planning for 2025

04:01 Introducing Sara Lynn Brennan

05:09 Sarah's Journey from Teacher to Designer

07:59 The Importance of Processes in Business

16:19 Finding the Right Clients

27:32 Attracting the Right Clients

28:34 Sharing Your Story and Processes

29:16 Navigating Social Media During COVID

30:25 The Power of Authenticity

38:01 Defining Luxury Clients

41:47 Understanding Client Needs

46:26 Balancing Boldness and Sensitivity

51:17 Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode

MORE ON SARA LYNN BRENNAN:
Website: https://saralynnbrennan.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/saralynnbrennan/

 The Vision 2025: Business Planning Session for Interior Designers is a personalized, two-hour deep dive into your business to reflect on 2024 and strategically plan for a profitable and fulfilling 2025. We’ll analyze your financial performance, project profitability, cash flow, and marketing effectiveness to uncover opportunities for growth and efficiency. 

For all things John: www.johnmcclain.co
For more information on my online Courses & Coaching Program for Interior Designers, visit: https://designsuccessacademy.com/
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Transcript

I think it takes a minute. I'm sure Sarah Lynn Brennan back in the first days was not like, you're going to do this today. All right. Was she that way then? Or was she a little different? No, because I was the one that was like, what do you mean two weeks? I don't have two weeks. And like everything I sourced was severely low stock.

So by the time two weeks comes around, uh, everything's gone. And that's why it's good to make those mistakes. When your risk is low, then scraping your knee doesn't hurt as bad when you're five is when you're 50, right? It's like that fall when you're 50 hurts a lot more and you probably damage other things on the way down.

That's those low level risks. When you're new, you'd think it's big, but it's not, it'll keep building. And so you'd rather have those hard conversations. When it feels hard in the beginning, because then you're going to be able to perfect that more and more. You're always be glad you did it. You'll always be glad you had the hard conversation.

You'll feel better. You'll feel lighter. Hey y'all. You're listening to the designer within podcast, episode number 58.

Welcome to the designer within podcast, the podcast where business and creativity come together. I'm your host, John McClane, and I created this podcast for my fellow interior designers, but also for creative and innovative minds alike. I've experienced the challenges and celebrated the victories that come with our careers.

And now I'm here to sip and spill the tea with you. There is no sugarcoating here, my friend, just the real deal. We're experts at getting creative for our clients. So let's channel that same energy into our own businesses. It is time to dig deep, re imagine your business and transform your life from the inside out.

It is time to dive into the Designer Within. Hello everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Designer Within podcast. I'm your host, John McClane, and I'm very, very, very happy to see you today. And I'm very happy to tell you that we have an amazing show lined up. I'm going to tell you more about that in a second, but first of all, I hope you had a wonderful holiday with Thanksgiving.

Hope you got your tummy full and your spirits lifted with friends and family. I know I did. I had a great time. And yeah, we're moving into the end of the year now. And as we do that, a lot of things are happening. You know that it's time to really reflect on your business and it's time to think about how you're going to plan for 2025.

And I am here to help you with that. I'm actually offering a business planning session for interior designers. I'm calling it Vision 2025. And we're going to reflect on 2024 and help you build a strategic plan for 2025. Um, have registrations open for that right now. As we're recording this, we're in the first week of December of 2024.

And I want you to sign up for this now if you're needing some help in analyzing your 2024 profits, your marketing, your team, and also to help you build a clear and customized action plan on your needs. So this is a one on one 90 minute call that we're going to do, and it's just about your business. I have you complete a questionnaire ahead of time, and then I will analyze that, and then we'll review that on the call.

And then make a plan for you for 2025 to keep doing the things that were working and revise the things that were not. And this is going to be a specific actionable list of steps that are tailored, again, to your business needs to boost your profitability, streamline your operations, and attract investors.

Ideal clients in 2025. So now's the time to reflect on 2024 and look towards 2025 and really make this upcoming year, a gang buster year for you and your business. I'm really excited to help you with that. Head over to design success academy. com and you can find out all of the information about vision 2025.

It's right there on the front page. Okay. Now then moving on to today's fabulous episode. Oh my goodness. Are you guys in for a treat today? And actually, I've divided this interview into two interviews because there was just so much. So today I have Sarah Lynn Brennan. You might have heard of Sarah. She's a fabulous designer, a fabulous person, and also a fabulous business person.

She is just a true powerhouse. I first heard of Sarah on Luann Nadiara's podcast, which you guys might listen to as well. And I was just so impressed by the way that she took her business business. By the reins and decided that she was going to make change in that and then now we've met each other a couple times at markets and at different functions and she's just a wonderful, wonderful person and I'm always impressed by what she has to share and how she is so open about sharing that as well.

And this podcast, as I said, I've divided it into two episodes. So I normally do only two podcast episodes per month, but I'm going to give you a bonus one. So today, this episode is coming out, and then one week from now, you can hear the second half of this episode, and you do not want to miss the second half either.

It is just as full of valuable, actionable information from someone who's been there, done that, as this first episode is. So come back next week, download the second episode, enjoy the first episode today. And on this first episode, we're going to dive into Sarah's background and how she got to where she is now.

And it's really fascinating, honestly. She was a middle and high school science teacher. You will hear the degrees that she has in her background, and they're non interior design degrees. And she also talks about the challenges she faced in the early parts of her career, including overcoming early business mistakes and learning the importance of structured processes.

Sarah is a process queen, just like me. She loves processes, and this is something that we definitely align on in addition to so many other things. Sarah also talks about the hard conversations that she has with clients and the evolution of her client interactions and her project management. Her journey is truly, truly a testament to persistence and the power of leveraging community and mentorship, leading to the establishment of her multi million dollar business that she has now, including a retail store that we're going to talk about in next week's episode.

You don't want to miss that one. And we also dive into talking about luxury clients. And defining what a luxury client is and really understanding the client needs through consultations and staying authentic and transparent to attract the right audience. And Sarah is authentic, transparent, and she has so many things to share.

Even I learned a lot today from Sarah. She's just a, again, just an open book, willing to share everything. And I'm thankful for her for sharing her insights. And here is a little bit about Sarah Lynn Brennan. Sarah is a luminary in the industry renowned for her unparalleled expertise and innovative approach to design, with a passion for creating spaces that seamlessly blend sophistication, functionality, and a deep emphasis on family centric elements.

Her remarkable work has not only caught the eye of industry insiders, but has been predominantly featured in prestigious publications such as Architectural Digest. Traditional Home is also named as a Woman to Know in North Carolina for the Class of 2024. I could go on and on and on about her. Design skills about her business savvy.

And I know that the best way to show you is just for you to listen to this episode yourself. So remember, this is part one. We're going to come back next week with part two, and you will hear the full unabridged story of Sarah Lynn Brennan and how she has become the powerhouse designer and business leader that she is today.

So here we go. Let's introduce you to Sarah Lynn Brennan. Hey, Sarah, welcome to the designer within podcast. Thank you for having me. This has been a long time coming. I've been wanting you on the podcast and our schedules have been a little crazy. I think you were moving and I was somewhere and yeah, it's been a couple of attempts, but we're here today.

We made it happen. We are here and we've got some good stuff to talk about. So I'm really, truly excited about having you on because I think about your journey with design and your business and how you've gotten to where you are. And it's just so intriguing to me. But before we get into all of that, tell everybody how you did get into design and what your specialty is with your business and how things are going right now.

And then we'll go into some more fun, specific questions. Awesome. Well, I started Sarah Lynn Brennan Interiors back in 2017. Before that, in my previous life, I was a middle and high school science teacher. I have a degree in biology, a minor in neuroscience, and a master's in secondary education. I was just so science and math brained.

Like, going through high school, all my friends took the same sort of classes, and we were all like, we're gonna go pre med. Ended up with a biology degree and didn't go to med school. My dad passed away right after I graduated college. So I was just like, Oh, it doesn't feel like a time where I'm ready to dive into school, like wanted to be with family and that sort of thing.

So I got my master's in education, which. I knew I was never gonna be a classroom teacher my whole life, but the skills that I learned in teaching, I think have helped me a lot, especially middle school. You kind of have to talk to people sometimes like they're in middle school. Teach them to follow you.

And so I really did that for a while. And then I had my babies and started tapping into just little things. I had a mom blog, and then I started making wreaths, like front door wreaths. So I couldn't find any of the right size that I wanted. So then I started doing that. Then that led to floral arrangements.

And then people were like, can you style my shelves? And I was like, I don't know. So we tried and did all of what we do as designers and do in our friends houses and that sort of thing. And. The end of 2017, the first stranger called me after I had a little Instagram account and was like, Hey, could you do my living room?

And I was like, Oh, I don't know if I could do that. So yeah, my first year was a little rough cause I just dove right into it. But then I had a kind of come to Jesus moment where I'm like, you either going to go back to teaching or you're going to do this right. Cause this is taking too much time for you to just like, have fun with it.

So I got real with myself and decided to focus on processes aligned with a lot of good mentors in the industry. Uh, Luanne Nygara is one of my main ones and her podcasts and just really learned so much, became a student of everything I could take in. And it's led to now A multi million dollar business, seven and a half years later.

So, wow. What a journey. Oh my gosh. That's great. And I do find that when you love design and you, or you love any aspect of it, it'll find its way into your life. Like no matter what you do, like you said, someone contacted you out of the blue. You didn't expect that. But I think a lot of people have that experience where they're just like.

Okay. I've got this bug of design and I really have to find an outlet for it. Whatever that outlet is. Right. And you have to keep looking and then suddenly you're like, Oh, people are noticing my outlet, like I'm doing well. So that's wonderful. It, and you mentioned that you kind of followed, uh, Luann Nadier, which that's how I first heard of you is on Luann's podcast, love Luann.

I think it's so wonderful what she did for the community, but I love that you took little pieces of information and you're like, Oh, wait a minute, that would help me. And that was what struck me about your story as well, is that first of all, you're very open and honest about things, which I truly admire.

And I think a lot of people should learn from that and try to do the same because when we share, we all grow and we all get better, but. When you were listening back in the early days of your business and you were like, Oh wow, maybe you were like, Oh, I didn't know about this or maybe I'm doing this wrong.

What was that pivotal moment? Was it a bad client? Was it a bad experience? Was it just overall that you were like, okay, I gotta get this organized. But how did you first realize that there was something askew with what you were doing with your company? Yeah, I mean, it was, I had little kids at the time. So my daughter was not even one when I started this and I was like taking time away from them.

To go and do like a mood board or a design project, whatever element that was. And it wasn't like, I couldn't put them in childcare cause I wasn't aching enough to do that part. I was, I was putting them in preschool cause that's what we were going to do anyway, but anything outside of those three and a half, four hours.

I had to squeeze it all in and I wasn't making progress. Clients were starting to ask like, what's next? Where'd you go? And it was just like this, this isn't right. Like it doesn't feel right. If I wouldn't want this, if I were me and I was trying to hire somebody to do this for me, I would want it to be better.

So it was just like, like a gut feeling of like, you're not doing good enough. And that I am a little bit of like type a psycho perfectionist. Like. There's, there's like, I took this test that Lillian and, and her cousin Eileen Hahn gives everybody and, well, not everybody, but if you sign up and you take it, I'm like the top 3 percent of nutso, like in the world.

Like you just, I, I'm like to the nth degree on or off the train. And ironically, my husband is also one of those top 3 percent people. And so we, even though we are in very different paths, seasoned medical sales, and I'm. In interior design, we're both that same level of like intense when it comes to what we're doing in our own, like pride and dignity.

And, and I just knew that I wasn't doing good enough. And so I had to talk to Lan about it. And I was just like, I don't get it. I don't know why I'm not doing a good job. I don't know enough about this and I don't know what I should be doing better. I just know it's not. And so she was like, okay, well, what's your process?

So we talked about like, okay, well, I do these 10 things. And she's like, no, no, no. What do you do in between each 10 thing? Like, how are you making sure that you're prepared for each meeting and that it's going to be the same experience every time? And I was like, ah, okay, I'll get back to you. So that's when I was like, okay, like it's not just what the client sees and knows, it's, it's what I'm doing on the backend.

So I literally just went to. A Starbucks and started writing everything I've done for every project down. I had a bunch of notebooks and I remember being on a plane coming home from somewhere and I took out all my notebooks and I started highlighting them. And I was like, this is the beginning part.

This is the end part. This is the middle part. And I started kind of like creating this colored sequence of, okay, you've got to do these things every time. And fine. In this one project, if you skip, there's no indoor treatments. At least it's there and you didn't forget that because I did an install one time and I forgot window treatments just entirely for the windows in the beginning and I was like, see, this is the stuff that's just like this is stupid.

So that's where I had this gut feeling that eventually I was going to get disappointed people that I was working with. I look back now, I made some really great mistakes in the beginning that had I coasted, maybe I would have made grander mistakes down the road when it mattered more. There's this philosophy with parenting, which I apply to my business too.

If a kid makes a mistake when he's eight or nine, the risk is really low. Like you're not gambling with much when you're eight or nine years old. If you take care of things for them and they don't learn to make that mistake until they're 18 or 19, the risks are much higher. I kind of treated my business in that same exact way of like in the younger years, I have less to lose.

Like if I fall and skin my knee when I'm. One or two years old in business, it's very different than if I fall in skin mining today. So I think that's the same way you can apply to a lot of different things of like, I was willing to do hard things and mess up in the beginning. And I really think it's helped me form my business today.

Oh my gosh. That was literally like eyeopening for a lot of people. I'm sure, because I know a lot of people listening to my podcast and other design business podcasts are in various stages of their business. And I know people who are. In the beginning who don't have their processes nailed down. And I honestly know people in their 15th or 20th year who unfortunately still don't have their processes nailed down.

But when you said it was sort of like a training ground of sort, right? So you had these type of projects, but Oh my gosh, had that been a. More large scale project, the consequences would have been worse. To give people kind of a, to relate to what you're saying, what type of projects were you working on in the beginning and how were you able to take what you were working on and actually find a process and maybe how many projects did you have under your belt?

So I'm assuming you had some under your belt at that point. Yeah. Like it would be as simple as somebody reaches out on Instagram and they're like, Hey, I want to work with you. Can we set up a consult? And then I would be like, yeah. And I'd answer them while I was getting out of bed in the morning. They sent the inquiry in the middle of the night.

So I'm answering them like, yeah, definitely send me an email here. And then the day goes on. Another day goes on. I forget to kind of check back and be like, Hey, where'd you go? I haven't got the email. Or maybe I did get the email and I, I didn't even do anything with it yet. I didn't have like this workflow of like, Somebody inquired, put their name here.

And that way, when you sit down once a week and follow up with people who have inquired with you, you can track where the heck they went and did, did they amount to anything or, you know, what, where did they come from and asking them the right questions so that you know where to pour your energy into.

And then it would be like, Hey, let's have a consult. And then it would take me like a couple of weeks to send out their proposal and their writeup. And then some of them might've lost interest. Somebody might've called somebody else. Somebody might've just gone to restoration hardware and thought. And heck, I'll just have someone else do it.

And so it was little things like that where I'd lose a job or I'd say I was going to send something within a certain amount of time, but then it was like, I'll never forget the time that they're, they said their budget, let's just use big numbers for fun, but it was like a hundred grand. It wasn't a hundred grand.

It was like 10 grand probably, but I did a hundred grand in product. I didn't think about the freight and the shipping and the tax. So they're like, our all in is X amount of money. So I sourced that much in product. Then when it comes to invoicing, they get their line items and products, but then there's the tax and then there's the freight and shipping and all of that.

So it ends up being probably close to like 125. By the time we look at this job, they don't have 125 and they were very clear. And they told me I have a hundred, but I did a hundred in products. And maybe their 100 included my design fee at the time too. So you gotta subtract. Okay, here's 100, subtract your design fee.

Or at least get the clarity if that needed to be in there. Then take out your freight, estimated freight. Then take out your estimated tax. You really only have probably 70, 000 to work with by the time you drill down to it. But that's your job, not theirs. Or it's your job to ask that question. And that's where, like, I see some of these questions on the Facebook groups and I see them, like, in the different, the different things online and it's like, this client's awful or whatever, and I'm like, nope, I was you.

Like, you didn't do the part that you needed to do, like, a lot of people are told and they actually do say, like, that you're the problem. I just think it's a healthy lesson to learn. Everyone's gotta have that moment of, like, I did that wrong. And you won't do that same moment more than once in life, usually.

I hope not. No, I, I agree with you. Like you, you see some people and I think a lot of people want a quick answer. They want like to watch a tick tock reel or look at an Instagram reel or whatever. And they're like, Oh yeah, that's what I'm going to do. You're living proof that it's not an overnight process, right?

I mean, it's not just like, Oh yeah, I did this wrong. I'm going to do it right instantly tomorrow. It takes a minute to, like you said, you took your notebooks and you sat down at Starbucks and then you were reading things and revising things. And by having that, it really sets that foundation of. I'm going to have an organized project.

I'm going to have a profitable project and then the client's going to be happy and I'm going to be happy. Do you feel that part of the problem in the beginning is that we're just people pleasers and we're too afraid to say no and not even in the beginning, but probably now too, like maybe we're just, we really want that project or, Oh my gosh, that's going to be a little great on my website, but we don't think about.

Oh, I need to be transparent with my client about how I run my business and how I price. Do you think that kind of fell in there with you in the beginning? So I have kids and they play sports and I love sports and I not, I make a lot of analogies with it, but when I watch a little, little kids basketball games, I don't know if you've watched them before.

There's very, there's no plays. There's no calculated thinking there. They are up and down, and up and down, and, and they'll get the ball and be dribbling, and then they lose control, fall on the floor. Some other kid picks it up. He's dribbling back the other way. They fall on the floor. The other kid picks it up.

If there's a shot that goes up, I mean, hallelujah, right? Like, we have maybe something to cheer about. But if you watch the NBA, the game is slower. The court is bigger. The stage is a completely different vibe than the same exact basketball court that these little kids are playing on. I think what it is, is in the beginning, we're so quick to like, yes, I'll do that for you, 100%.

People pleaser, yes, I will make that work. And we're afraid that if we don't have all the answers or if we pause it all, we're going to lose the opportunity. And I think the people that are the most experienced are able to really sit and think about something that a client brings to us. Say, you know what, I don't know how to do it that way, so I'm going to say no, I can't do it that way.

I can't buy the antique from Europe for you because, you know, I, I don't know how to get it from there to here with, with my process. So if you want to buy that piece, that might be something you have to coordinate on your own. And until you had the experience of being able to do something on your own or come up with a process for it, or just say, you know what, I'm going to have to think about that, then I think that you will continue to be like, yeah, I'll do it.

Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, I'll do it. And so I think that. With good business comes from a negotiation between both parties, really understanding the expectation. And I think both parties understand that if there's a part of the process that doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense to enter into that as well.

And having the maturity to know that there will be another project. It's okay if you don't get this one, because it's ultimately not a good fit. It's still really, really hard, but I think that's been. The biggest thing I've noticed as my business has matured is like, no, I'm not going to do that. I don't know how to do it that way, or I've done it that way and it doesn't work and here's why, and you're not going to change for a night.

So I really think that when you let the game slow down and really think about what's going to actually happen, you'll get your answer. You just have to have the courage to go to the client with that answer, is what I think needs to happen at that point. Oh, that's a great analogy. Yeah, I'm not a sports person, but even I understood that.

No, that's really, that is true. We're sort of just like, Oh, okay. This sounds good. Let me try that. Oh, this sounds good. Let me try that. But if you have a process in place for it and you're like, I've done this before. Here are the steps behind it. Then we can do it. And if not, I like what you said about being honest.

And I feel that common sense kind of goes by the wayside sometimes with us, because as designers, we're just like, Oh no, I'm supposed to do everything. I'm the hero of it all. And you don't have to do it all. And you don't have to pretend. That you do it all. Do you, do you feel that maybe a lot of designers in the beginning are just in love with the craft itself?

Cause I know I was, I was just so in love with the craft in the beginning that I would take on anything that knocked on the door with a checkbook. And it led to a lot of lessons learned and a lot of bad clients. But also too, I feel that the client also comes in with a certain naivete about it. They're like, Oh, they're just going to design a beautiful home for me, wave a wand and have it done.

Do you ever feel that clients are impressed or scared or excited about your process that you actually have a process in place, or do they like that? How do they feel about knowing that Sarah is taking the time to set up her business to run like a business? How do your clients react to that? Unless they want it to be a shit show, because they're a shit show.

Matt usually exposes his self, right? And then it's like, no, I want a friend that's going to go with me here and da da da da da. And I'm like, no, no, we will meet with you in the whole process twice. And And if they want like a bestie, it comes out real fast when I start explaining our process because we are not going to be that.

You're not set up that way. And so I think that our ideal client, which is so interesting, we've done a lot of research to figure out what type of person it is. The way I've told my story is that I'm a founder of my firm and I've grown it from the ground up. Our ideal clients and our most favorite clients are also founders.

Or they are creators of their own business. And if they are not the creator of their business, then they are in a position where they have had to grind and work to the level that they're at. Maybe they started out as the janitor and then wherever, and they've climbed their way up. And so founders identify with us and with me, because that's the story I have always told.

And they can appreciate the hustle that I'm putting in. Cause I am really transparent about all of, and I really transparent about the fact that you're going to get a process and that professionals hire professionals. And that that's what I have done. That's what they are doing. This isn't just for fun.

I don't show them TTC spreadsheets and, and like all of that stuff. We just went through a rebrand, which I kind of didn't want to do, but it needed to align with where we stood in the industry, and that is that we are very serious and straightforward when it comes to the business side. Design side is a given.

You're going to get a beautiful product. If you like our portfolio and you like the direction that you think we can take your project. That's a given. And when we have founders and people who are in the CEO position, they've gone through the same journey as me and they usually are newer generation millionaires.

They, they have newer money. They have earned it. They've had to scrape their way to where they're at. So they have just enough to celebrate it, but they're also still just conservative enough where they want to be educated and they want somebody to explain to them why we're doing this and why it's worth the investment.

I have found that those like. 1 to 3 percenters that have grown up with money their whole lives. They're not our ideal client. They do not relate to me at all. They have built nothing most of the time. Because they just have either a spouse or a grandmother or a parent or somebody who has just fed them millions their entire lives.

And those are the projects that I think as designers, we aspire to get. What I have had to learn is because I had googly eyes the first time I did that too, I have had to learn that like, you have to look more at the person and the business relationship before you get to the design side of things, because our ideal client has to be in alignment with us, with our process.

And with our approach before they even fall in love with our designs. And I really think that's how we've attracted the type of people we've attracted. And it's so ironic. When I go through my, um, intake form and I kind of look up the person that's filled out the form, lately, they're almost all founders of some kind.

Oh my God. I love that you are so in the weeds in a very good way with your company, that exactly who your ideal client is, what they're looking for, what they're going to resonate with, what they're going to appreciate. And you're right. If you're wanting an electric client, nine times out of 10, they're going to appreciate the fact that you're organized.

They're giving us a lot of money to do their part, right? To entrust us with, and they don't want to just give that to some willy nilly person off the street. They want to know that you're going to take care of their home and their money and their investments and ROI and all of those good things. But the fact that you have drilled down your ideal client so in depth is so fricking fantastic.

And I think that so many people are scared, are timid to figure out who their ideal client is. And you just hit the nail on the head when you were like, I share my story. I share my processes. I share all of that. And then that is like, in my opinion, it's a magnet for those people to come. Did you share always?

Because I know a lot of people are listening and I try to put myself in their minds where they're like, well, I'm new. I don't really know. I don't have a story. I don't have a company story, but you have a personal story to still share with people, regardless of how long you've been in business. Right.

Right. Oh my gosh, I wish I shared more today. I have not gone on Instagram for probably more than 30 days myself. I used to be a talking head on Instagram, like the whole, probably first four years I did this every day COVID happened and I was three years in and I was like, I have come too far to just like throw this away.

Cause I think we all debated like, what do we do? And so I was like, I'm just, I'm going to vow to go on Instagram every day for 30 days straight and show people I'm still working. I would get dressed every day. I would go on Instagram and I would talk about what I was doing. I would turn the camera around and show the drawings.

I would show my sourcing boards and the fact that I use my Doma and like all of the things like, Oh, and by the way, if you are moving in the middle of this madness, I'll figure out a way to work with you. Just, I don't know how we're going to do it, but let's do it together. And I would say things along the lines of like, now we have enough room for two new clients.

Oh, space is limited. It works. Like things like that work. Cause people are like, Oh my gosh, you know what? How am I going to, I'm home now. I need an office. And it was shaky waters at the time. Like we didn't know, are people going to pull their money and not do anything? Are we going to even be able to buy anything?

And it was really, really hard. But I was like. I have done too much to let this float away. So the fact that I showed up every day and just talked about what I was doing, I was top of mind. There were real estate agents who didn't, like they were showing houses out of need. There was people moving for whatever reason, still during this time, and they're virtually showing houses and they have clients moving to the area who need a whole house of furniture and all the furniture stores are closed.

So I was there just like, Hey, who wants to figure out how to do this with me during this time? You need window treatments? Well, try to measure your windows. Like I'll go in by myself with a gas mask and like measure your stuff and then later I'll leave the samples. You can like sanitize that. Like I was like, I'll do anything.

And wouldn't you know it, a couple of real estate agents referred me to big clients, like NFL type clients. And I was like, okay. So then I picked up the phone and I called the agent and I was like, Hey, you don't know me and I don't know you, but. Thank you. Like what made you refer me? And she said, I was watching you on Instagram for the last like month.

And I just knew like, you'd figure it out. And I still love this woman to this day. And she said, no one's ever called me to say thank you for a referral. And I was like, that's all I have to do is call people and thank them for referrals and show up and talk about on Instagram every day. What? Okay. So I just kept doing that and kept doing that.

Now I'm too freaking busy with like backend stuff that I don't get on as much. But I'm telling you, John, like I challenge everybody, go onto Instagram three days in a row and talk about your services and how you're ready for new clients. And call me a liar if somebody doesn't inquire within the next 30 days after you do that.

Like it does freaking works because people know, people don't know you're there until you get in there and start talking about it. And then the people who resonate with you are the people who are going to call you. They're like, Oh, that's me. I need what you're saying. So I'll call you. It's wild. That is gold because I know a lot of people are afraid to go on social media.

They have to be perfect. They have to get themselves exactly saying the right words. Did you like, Oh, they, I got to practice, I got to read this script or was it just off the cuff? No, I never, ever plan anything. And I think that's what makes it authentic. If I tried to give a speech, I screw it up because I can't remember it and then I do it wrong.

And like I told you, I'm like uber perfectionist. So I will be mad at myself and have, like, wake up in the middle of the night. Like, why'd you say that? So I just have to let it fly. And the thing is, I was talking about it that time that I didn't know what to do. But because I didn't know what to do, that resonated with people.

And so they also didn't know what to do, but they're like, Hey, let's do this together. Like, so I think it's just like, put yourself out there and talk about literally what you're doing today. I bought these really cool headphones because I'm going to go on this podcast with John. I mean, think about the stuff you watch as you scroll through.

How many cats I watch, I don't even like cats. They're hysterical. It's so stupid, but like, we're watching stuff that just shows up in front of our face. If you like design, the algorithm's going to take care of a lot of that for you. They're going to put a local designer in front of you because you have been Googling certain things.

That'll never happen if you'd ever create the story or the video to be put in front of other people. So I really think it's like turning your screen around, showing people the mood board you just made. Make a fake one. Nobody has to know, like call it project X. Nobody has to know what it is. Talk about your drawings and how every time you do a project you create these beautiful 3D drawings.

That means that you make like essentially no errors. Like, have you ever bought a sofa that's the wrong size or shape for your space? Like, every person in the world has done that. That, that's very expensive. Tell them that won't happen if you use us. But just like, it's little things that we take for granted because we're trying, like, we forget we're really good at it and other people aren't.

I think you're exactly right. And I think that we do take it for granted and we're like, Oh, everybody knows this. No, they don't. They don't know it or else they would be doing it. If you're choosing tile, tell them why you chose this tile. If you're choosing a specific countertop, oh my gosh, I'm at the slab yard.

And here's what I love. It does not have to be rocket science. It definitely does not have to be perfect. Do you want to give a professional image of yourself, but don't ever try for perfectionism because as you said, when we're scrolling through, ever look at someone and think like, oh God, they missed that word, or they said that the wrong way, or their hair's out of place.

I never, ever care because you're going there for the message that is there. And I love that you said you were top of mind, and I think that is so important for us to remember to kind of always be marketing ourselves and always to be the go to for what you're looking for, for that client and, and to be top of mind.

It requires you to do those things. And so I say, listen to Sarah's lessons, just go out and do it. Be yourself, be honest, be transparent, have fun with it. It's not rocket science. We're not curing a disease here. Let's say my clients know I love Diet Coke, and like, people know it before I even ever meet them.

I always have one everywhere near me. And I'll go to a consult and they'll be like, do you want a Diet Coke? I'm so weird, but I love that you know that. And like, I'm never, I have nothing to do with Diet Coke. They're never going to endorse me. I'm never going to do a commercial with them. But like, That little bit about me people should know like I have a candy corn mug on my desk right now It's a freaking love candy corn.

I love circus peanuts and then those a few people who are like, oh my god I love this food two people always make fun of me for that You're like they're people and that's nothing to do with design or business or anything It's just like they have a friend who will eventually need something that you do and it's because they you're entertaining to follow You That's why they're gonna, there's people now like Nate Berkus and Marie Flanagan, all these like amazing people that you follow, all they post is design because they, they've hooked you, you don't, they don't need to do anything else, but until you reach that level, just be, just be authentic.

Like that's, I know it's an overused word, but our clients know I like Diet Coke because I'm an idiot and I post it. It's not like. It has to do with anything. Your, your, your diet code is my Dolly Parton. I post Dolly Parton all the time. Whenever I get so many people, clients, vendors, Oh my God. I saw this about, or they'll tag me in a post.

And it's like, people do business with people. They do business with people, not company. So when you remember that people are doing business with you as a person, you need to let them in on a little bit of your life. That was something that I did not do in the beginning. I. Was hesitant to talk about my husband or my dog or my life, because I was like, Oh gosh, is that going to turn someone off?

Maybe. But the flip side of that is it brings the right people to you. And those are the people who were like, Oh, she's so funny. I love what she said. Or, and by the way, if you ever want to start any sort of controversy, talk about candy corn, because some people just are like, they have a visceral reaction to candy corn.

Same thing with circus peanuts. If you don't, I mean, people think I'm nuts. We're liking it. People don't even know what they are anymore. The 20 somethings. Yeah. I don't even know what that is. You can't get them anywhere, but I'm obsessed. I don't know why. I literally like sugar. You don't hear me telling you about protein very often.

I love candy corn too. So yeah, we are, we are definitely soul sisters on the candy corn and the diet coke. Yeah, a hundred percent. When you started. Honing in on your clients and figuring out not only ideal client was that maybe what your ideal project was, did your definition of a luxury client change as well from when you first started?

Or did you always have this place to go for that ideal client? And if so, how did that evolve from what you considered a luxury client? Was it based on money? Was it based on the client? Was it based on the size of the house? Was it based on the neighborhood? And if so, how has that evolved over the years for you?

Yeah, I think that everyone just kind of dreams of like the mansion on the hill or just the house, the gated community. And I think the first time that really kind of flipped on its head for me was when, uh, inquiry came in for a house that had, um, Like a 300, 000 value, which today that house is probably worth a million.

The description of the renovation they were looking to do was basically the entire house, every bathroom, kitchen, taking down walls, flipping the location of a bathroom, and I knew in my heart of hearts, it was probably a 250, 000 to 300, 000 project. And so I was like, this, this is going to be a waste of my time.

They are so out of touch with what it's going to take and what their home value is. So I do the discovery call anyways, and come to find out this is their original home that they raised their family in and they have four or five other homes and have this really amazing lifestyle, but the kids never wanted to sell the house and the kids were like college age.

And so they wanted to be able to come back to this house. Cause that's where they're, they grew up. That's where their friends were. And it was just in severe needing, um, updating. So the husband and wife decided to just got the entire house. Re renovate the kitchen, bathrooms, bedrooms, all the things. And let this be a place where they could continue to hang out.

It's kind of a place where they all call home, even though they're all adults and kind of going in different directions now. And I thought for sure that would never be a luxury project. On paper, it definitely wasn't. But what we created in that house was so custom and so beautiful and such an amazing thing for them.

And the, the cost of the renovation definitely exceeded the home value. And, and you don't hear of that very often, but it taught me that luxury doesn't have to be that pretty picture that we all have in our head. And some of the best luxury clients I've had weren't that like high end brand head to toe kind of person.

For us, it was just. The type of person that's willing to value our services and take the project full circle and not try to chop it up and take parts of it out and that sort of thing. So I think luxury was redefined for me once I learned to understand the business side of something. That's the ROI of getting involved in a project like that and the outcome of it, even though on paper, all the indicators said that's never going to be a luxury project.

So that was, that was a cool one for me about four years ago that helps me to see that like, you know what, I'm going to take that call anyways, because even though they, it doesn't make sense, it sounds like I should, I should learn about it and I'm glad that I didn't. That is a great story. I think that we jump to conclusions so many times when we get the address on an inquiry.

And we instantly Google it, right? We go to see what the value is. And I agree with you. We look at that and sometimes we're like, it's not worth it, but there are those situations like yours. I had a client too, they literally renovated their primary bedroom suite because they wanted, uh, like this really beautiful enclave for themselves.

And I said, well, this is going to put your house totally out of the value of your neighborhood. They said, I don't care. We're going to live here forever. This is our forever home. We want it perfect. And. You're right. You judge a book by its cover sometimes and it does not work out. Do you feel that your questionnaire helps you understand that better?

Do your discovery call? Like when do you, after you have that initial reaction to the project that comes in, when do you realize that, oh yeah, this could be a good fit for us? I'm not sure until I go to their house and I get to be in their energy. And so I think it's a combination of their energy, what I see that they don't mean to show me.

For example, like, where's your trash in the house? And like, there's a mess and then there's like a disaster, right? If I see just the way you live and the way you carry yourself, like, it's okay if your house is messy, but you carry yourself really well, or it's, there's also a distinction between dirty and messy.

And I think there's just like some things that are really telling about a person in their space. And, and I've never really been a true believer of like, I don't really know exactly how to read energy, but I know I can read energy. And so really just kind of picking up on their vibe and, and why I'm there and the intention of the project.

And, and then also just like things that they tell everyone, all the coaches tell you to look at like their car and, and their shoes and, and the things that like, are they shopping at Target or are they shopping at Walmart? I just, I don't, it's a sum total of all of those things for me. Like. Because I've met some really, really wealthy guys that they don't care about any of that.

And then you've met a lot of women or men who are dressed head to toe with all this luxury crap, and then they're so phony. And so I think that like, until you can experience the person in the project, I do feel like I've probably been duped a couple of times and I get out to a place and I'm like, wait, this is not it.

So I think it's a combination of all of the things, but the in person meeting for me is probably the most important. That's critical. Also, I looked at how they speak to their spouse, how they speak to their children, right? I mean, like sometimes those subliminal. Messages that you see are those messages that aren't like directly related to a question that you ask or the most important lessons that you learn.

And, uh, I'm like, I don't want to work with you. You're so mean to her. I've done that. Oh my gosh. One time I went to a client's house and I didn't know the husband was going to be at the meeting. I had only talked to the wife so far and he pops his head in around the corner. And he's like, so what you need to know about my wife is as soon as she had children, she lost all sense of style, all sense of style, completely closed and in the house.

So all of this you're seeing, it's her, but that's why you're here. And I always teach, well, hello. I had a really hard time writing that proposal because I wanted to do it for her. For all the reasons I had talked to her about in the beginning, but I was like, I can't work with this man. Well, I actually appreciate it even though they don't do it intentionally.

I personally appreciate it as a business owner. When I can pull the curtain back and see a little bit about what they're doing and how they live. And I don't really want them to put a fakeness up for me when I come over for the consultation. I want them to be. Getting this kid's lunches ready for the next day or, you know, picking the kids up and running in late.

Like all that is how they live and how they live is what we have to address as designers. Right. And the end result is figuring out a solution to whatever pain point they have. And I always say. If you just dig a little deeper to the answer to their question, they'll tell you the real reason behind why they want to renovate that kitchen or the real reason why they want to knock that wall down and create a family room, right?

Because they want to spend more time with their kids or keep them all in one space or whatever. When you're doing these consultations with a client, is your goal also to pick up on that, the reasoning behind it? Is that important for you? Yeah. And that's some of the things that I was trying to say, but I couldn't figure Where there's a pile of mail, or where certain things are accumulating, is a telltale sig like A lot of people have Amazon boxes all over their dining room.

It's like, why is this a dining room? Let's make it something else. And a lot of times now it's turning into an office or it's turning into a play room or a lounge room or something that they will actually use. But I always tell people don't like obviously clean, but don't. Do the special house visit for me when I come.

Like, if you just moved in, unpack, and, and when I get there, pause, and we'll do the consult, and then go about what you're doing. I want to see the way you live in, in the house. It doesn't do any good for you to whip it back together, and then I don't get to see the problems. So, I think that they're afraid to do that a little bit because they're embarrassed.

But for me, it's just being able to see how they live in their home so that you can easily solve their pain point. A lot of times all you have to do is see it and there's a simple solution. They're like house blind. They don't realize it could be different. So it's usually, honestly, pretty straightforward, but they just, they don't know how to do it any different.

Can I ask you, um, on the subject of being bold with how you are relaying that information to a client, I know many designers are too timid to say, Oh no, you really should do this. Like on the consultation, for instance, what level of boldness do you have with a client to say, here's what I know for a fact, here's what you should do.

Or is there sort of a dance that you do to find out how receptive they are of that? And then maybe you tell them later, because we as designers, we walk into a home and we're like, Oh, take that, move that, do this, do that. We know like generally overall, we know. And most of that ends up in the final design at the end of the process.

But. How much of that do you do on that consultation? And I know this is getting in the weed, but I know people will find it very helpful. But how much boldness do you have on the consultation to say, let's do this, or do you wait and bring those up later? If they flat out ask me, I won't hold back. But a lot of times I'm still trying to gauge if they're ready for that yet.

Because sometimes Like some people come to you and say, I need to talk to you. And a lot of times I learned this in therapy many years ago. It was like, do you need my support or do you want my advice? Because there are two different answers a lot of the times. And so if, if you're like, I just did this living room and it looks really great, doesn't it?

And I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to burst your bubble. I'm just going to know that like, that's your version of great. And we might not be on the same page because I can see that that living room probably came together maybe eight 8, 000 with all the things I'm seeing a lot of Ikea or whatever, but that's great to her So if I am being led to like isn't this great or we just did this.

Did you like this? I'm very careful to say yes or no in those moments because I just met them But if they're like, okay, I've been debating this piece for a long time. My husband loves it. I don't what do you think? Then I feel like they're not really looking for my support. They're looking for an honest opinion.

So I think that there's a fine line between, am I supporting you in this moment and do you need to learn to trust me or are you truly looking for my advice? And I kind of dance around that and that's how I decipher what I say. I love that you defined consultation and design process with therapy. Are you relating them together?

It's absolutely the truth. I think it's important to drop enough excitement to get them excited about what you're capable of. To say, oh, have you thought about this? And in the beginning, I held back a lot. I held back probably more 15 years ago than I ever should have because They love sometimes the things that you say you have to make sure that they're receptive of it that they're not going to be offended By it and you don't really know their personality.

So for me, it's had a 50 50 split I like drop a few like, oh wow moments to them where they're like, oh crap. I never thought about that Yeah, your grandma's table is hideous, but I'm not gonna tell you that right now I'm gonna tell you that after you sign the agreement and then we're into the proscription I'm going to show you why that's difficult.

See, this table only goes with these types of things and you don't want any of these types of things. So, I always tell them, like, ultimately, you're probably going to make every decision that happens with the purchasing. And the way that this goes, but my job is to facilitate you towards something that I believe in.

And I have to show you the best options. That is what you hired me for. And you may not like all of them, but I always give the example. I bought a car one time, like a month before a new feature came out and the dealership never told me if I waited a month, I'd get the new feature. And so I had to keep this damn car for like five years.

Without like wireless Bluetooth or something ridiculous. And I was like, I went back to the team cause I heard it just came out like a month or two later. And I was like, guys. Why didn't you tell me if I waited that I would have got that? They're like, well, you never said you needed it. I'm like, I needed it.

I didn't know it was an option. And so I had to keep this damn car for longer than I wanted. And so that's where I think they don't, they don't know. It's like, you don't even know that this depth of a sofa with this type of lumbar is going to rock your world every night. You're going to like be so happy.

I showed you this thing because it's going to solve a lot of your back issues, or it's going to this, that, and the other thing. They just don't know. So like, you can't expect them to bring you something that it's your job to share with them, actually. Yeah. You got to stay up on all of the things. You got to have your hand in lots of different things and be able to pull those out and say, Oh, this is something great.

And I like that comparison that you're very good with analogies, but. By the way, sir, I like the analogy that you did with the car, because yeah, you don't know that they don't go to market. They don't go shopping and sit on sofas and test out lamps and look at the finish of things. They don't know that's not their job.

Our job is to bring them these things. And I love that you bring that up to them in your own way. And that would be what I would encourage people to do is find that moment that feels right. You're going to know. When it feels right or not to say, here is something that I suggest. And then they can either accept it or not.

Okay, we're going to stop episode one here. I know you guys love this episode and I know you're ready for next week's episode. So be sure to come back next week when Sarah and I finish our conversation. And we talk more about her retail store and showroom and how she developed a new service with that showroom based upon the specific needs of her clients.

It's really like a showroom 101. If you've ever thought about. Starting your own showroom or retail space, Sarah is going to talk about the lumps and bumps and the learning lessons that she had with her own retail store and how she's finding a way to succeed in that. We're also going to talk about buying power tips, so if you've ever wondered how you start relationships with vendors and grow those relationships with vendors, Sarah will share her inside secrets on how she did that for herself.

Including negotiating lower prices and convincing those vendors to actually work with you and your business, whether you're new or whether you have been established for a long time. So the learning lessons continue on the next episode, and I'll see you back next week with part two of my interview with Sarah Lynn Brennan.

Because remember my friend, to see big changes on the outside, sometimes you have to look within. I'll see you next week. Make it a great day. Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the Designer Within Podcast. It means the world to me. If you're ready to dive deeper into the topics that we've discussed here, be sure to check out my online coaching and courses program, DesignSuccessAcademy.

com. Here I will teach you everything you need to know to run your interior design business. From starting the project all the way to the end, including marketing and pricing your services for profit. And for more information on this podcast, including how to be a guest or my design services in general, go to johnmcclain.

co. That's johnmcclain. co. See you soon, friend.