Designing Your Business Framework: Contracts, Negotiations, and Global Success with Christina Richardson

In this episode of The Designer Within Podcast, host John McClain and interior designer Christina Richardson delve into the critical aspects of contracts and negotiations crucial for a successful design business. Christina shares her unique transition from mining to design and how her diverse background empowers her practice. They explore the importance of clear contracts covering scope, price, and liabilities, strategies to avoid scope creep, and effective negotiation techniques. 

Key highlights include insights on international agreements, leveraging technology like VR and SketchUp, and the benefits of niching and networking in the industry. Tune in for actionable advice on managing client relationships, enhancing communication, and incorporating Scandinavian design principles into your portfolio. 

This episode is packed with tips on building a strong foundation in design while protecting your business interests.

00:00 Starting a Design Business: The Importance of Contracts

01:03 Welcome to The Designer Within Podcast

02:17 Introducing Christina Richardson: From Mining to Design

04:58 Christina's Journey: From Sweden to the US

08:39 The Business Side of Design: Contracts and Negotiations

18:19 Scandinavian Design Principles and Storytelling

28:47 Balancing Design and Financial Decisions

29:30 Advice for International Designers

30:13 Understanding the Vienna Agreement

31:40 The Importance of Contracts and Liabilities

37:48 Explaining Agreements to Clients

39:31 Starting Out in the Design Industry

42:08 Networking and Collaboration

49:50 Embracing Technology in Design

51:42 Hiring Experts and Building a Team

55:10 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

For more information on Christina Richardson:
Website:
https://christinarichardsoninteriors.com/

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Transcript

Christina Richardson and John McClain The Designer Within Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Quite early, when you start a design business, you need to get a contract, right? And this is something I learned during my mining years, and also, this is something that I feel a lot of designers struggle with, is the contract. I actually started to teach about it because it feels like there's like a stigma around contracts.

People don't want to come across as rigid or like too harsh. And so one of the first things I see a lot of times is people try to soften their contract with like some sort of story about the company and they have a pink background and it's like about us, I'm like, no, this belongs in a welcome package.

Okay. Contract. It should be strictly. And that's good for both parties, your clients are just going to be confused, right? I usually say there are three things that people struggle with. It's scope, it's price, surprise, and liabilities. Hey all, you're listening to the [00:01:00] Designer Within Podcast, episode number 55.

Welcome to the Designer Within Podcast, the podcast where business and creativity come together. I'm your host, John McClane, and I created this podcast for my fellow interior designers, but also for creative and innovative minds alike. I've experienced the challenges and celebrated the victories that come with our careers.

And now I'm here to sip and spill the tea with you. There is no sugarcoating here, my friend, just the real deal. We're experts at getting creative for our clients. So let's channel that same energy into our own businesses. It is time to dig deep. Reimagine your business and transform your life from the inside out.

It is time to dive into the designer within. Hey friends, welcome back to the designer within podcast. I hope you are doing well [00:02:00] and are enjoying this spooky time of year for recording this in October. If you are wondering, so happy that you're here. Today's episode is going to be a really interesting episode, really lots of takeaways in this episode.

I am so excited for you to hear it. I have Christina Richardson on with me today, and she is truly full of so much knowledge. She has a very interesting background, as most of us do. But hers gets a little more interesting because she came from the mining industry into interior design. How many of us can say that, right?

And I love that we all have transferable skills that we've learned from our previous careers and that we bring into our design businesses now. Christina is no exception and the lessons that she learned are so valuable to her and now she's going to share them with us. Everything from Liabilities in your agreement to contracts to worldwide regulation that will help you as an interior designer if you ever consider practicing in another country It's [00:03:00] really fascinating the deep dive that Christina takes into a lot of things that could affect you as a business owner We're going to talk about our agreements.

We're going to talk about red flags with clients Those are always fun to hear And then, of course, we're going to hear Christina's insight on how she brings her beautiful Scandinavian design background into her business today. And lots of tips for you to also include that in your business if you choose to do so.

Christina Richardson specializes in Scandinavian design, as I said. She's at the forefront of innovation and timeless aesthetics. Her portfolio not only showcases stunning projects, but also demonstrates her knack for weaving storytelling in her design process. I forgot to mention that we do talk about storytelling.

Christina's expertise extends beyond her creativity. She is well versed in the corporate side of our industry and adept in navigating the complexities of running a business across different countries. If you've ever, ever, ever thought about expanding your business, not only outside of your current area, you guys, [00:04:00] but also outside of the current country that you're in, Christina has some really, really great takeaways for you there.

Without further ado, sit back and enjoy my fascinating and in depth conversation with Christina Richardson from Christina Richardson Interiors. Hey, Christina, I want to welcome you to the designer within podcasts. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited to have you. You are going to lend some insight to a lot of different things today, especially those who are wanting to maybe branch out into different areas and especially you as a global designer, I think that's so fascinating.

You have business experiences, as I said, so. I want to hear from you, I want to hear from you how you got into the world of interior design because you have a fascinating background and I think that's just interesting to people. So tell me how you found your way into this lovely, wonderful, crazy, exciting, invigorating field we call interior design.

I know, yes, of course, yeah. I, you know, I was born a [00:05:00] designer and I'm not, I kid you not. Like. I was four years old. I was drawing layouts and floor plans and people just let, they just let me be alone, you know, because they, I was just weird, but I always wanted to be an architect. Um, and I was born in the Northern part.

Like we're talking Northern part of Sweden, like not polar bears, but almost. Um, and you know, there weren't, it wasn't a lot to do there. So I had my own little thing in my own little world, you know, with design and all that. Um, I drafted floor plans. I read the Ikea brochure. That was kind of what was available at the back of the day.

In my little town, you could choose from being religious and or play hockey. Uh, I didn't like any of it. So, yeah. Yeah. And then growing up, I. Really wanted to get into architectural school, Sweden, at the time, I think accepted 60 people a year, [00:06:00] 60 students a year, 8 million people. And I was working at a construction and architectural firm at this point.

And I got a degree in construction engineering, just to tell you, trying to get into architectural school. But so I was like, Oh, heck with it. I'm just going to get a mechanical degree, start working for the mines. And I did. So, and then. Found out fairly quickly that I had a knick for business. So I started the procurement department and then I ended up being the business manager, business director for one of Sweden's biggest mining companies.

So I did business across the world. I always had my design business on the side, helping people with pyramids. So I always had my design business and that was my, what I kind of did. Got back to when I needed to, you know, de stress stuff like that. So I've always been a designer and when we moved to the U S I couldn't work.

So I was [00:07:00] like, my husband is also in mining. So when we moved to the U S we couldn't work, I couldn't work. So I was like, I'm going to take it, get a degree in interior design, start my own business. And I did. That was 10 years ago. Oh my gosh. Wow. It's so interesting. I love hearing the background stories because very few, unless they're younger, they go straight from, you know, college, high school to college.

Very few people go straight into the design field. And I love the fact that we've all found our own unique way to get into the industry. And what I hear from everybody, including you, is you can't push down the need and the want and the desire to do interior design if you tru truly love it. And I think that's what happened to you.

You did something that you had to do out of necessity, which we all do, you know, at some point. I did it the same way, but I love that you said, nope, design is still there. I still want to do it. But what also I love is that all the things that you just described, I heard procurement, you know, and we've talked about contracts, all of [00:08:00] those are transferable skills that go right into design, right?

So you didn't lose anything by doing those previous careers, I'm assuming. Not at all. And you know what? I didn't realize it back then. I was really like, I thought it was just a waste. And then when I started my own business more and more, I realized, Oh my gosh, like all the contracts and negotiations and just talking to clients because everything is a negotiation, right?

Selling things to clients because you're selling, you're everything, you're a seller, you're a procurement officer, you're a designer, and you're a psychiatrist, so. You're everything. I love it. And I was going to do this later, but I think let's just go into the business side of it now, because I think that's what people want to hear from other experienced designers is, you know, the successes and the fails.

And then I want to talk more about your Scandinavian design focus and how you kind of balance this worldly design that you do, which is really has no boundaries for yourself, which is fantastic. But. On the business side of [00:09:00] things, with your previous career in mining and all the things that you learned there, tell me about some things that instantly pop into your mind that you're like, yes, this is something that went from my previous career to here.

And then specifically, I want to talk to you about your negotiation skills and things that you brought into from your career in the mining industry to interior design, but anything that pops into your mind right away that you're like, yes, that really helped me. Yeah, so yeah, you know, quite early when you start a design business, you need to get a contract, right?

And this is something I learned during my mining years. And also this is something that I see a lot of designers struggle with is the contract. I actually, I started to teach about it because it feels like there's like a stigma around contracts. People don't want to come across as. Rigid or like too harsh.

And so one of the first thing I see, things I see a lot of times is people try to soften their contract with [00:10:00] like some sort of story about the company and they have a pink background and it's like about us and stuff like that. I'm like, no. This belongs in a welcome package. Okay. Contract, it should be strictly transactional.

And that's good for both parties. Your clients are just going to be confused, right? So that's one thing. Just try to separate like the transactional part and kind of your presentation and all the logos and, you know, about info and all that doesn't belong in a contract. Um, I usually say there are three things that people struggle with.

It's scope, it's price, surprise. And liabilities. And for instance, the scope, I just finished a kitchen project. So we did the kitchen and the living room, and I'm very like rigid about like, okay, defining the scope. So it's the kitchen, the living room, and this is what we're going to do in it. And then the clients, you know, when you start ripping [00:11:00] things out, they get into a flow sort of, and all of a sudden they're going to start renovating the garage.

And I'm like, okay, that's okay. I mean. I, I get you. I mean, I love this. So this is fun. So I understand. And they started asking me questions like, What color should we do? Like, what type of garage door? You know, the storage units and all that. And I was pretty clear with them. And this is not a price issue.

Designers come at this scope creep thing with a price, like a price issue. It's not. It's actually an insurance and liability issue. If something, if you start giving them advice and they start, you know, all that, and something happens there, the first thing the insurance company is going to look at is your contract.

And if it's not in the contract, you're not insured. So you can always say to your clients at that point, like, Look, my contract does not include your garage. If you want me to include the garage, I can do that. And it's going to cost a little more, but it's [00:12:00] basically from a liability and insurance point of view.

Okay. So, and that, that's way easier for clients to understand. Right. And easier too, for the designer to say, for designers who are squeamish about, Oh, do I do it or do I not do it? If you have a legal. Uh, platform to stand on that just since say legally, I can't, right? Legally, I can't. And I would love to help you and I can definitely do that.

I mean, if it's just a, you know, color suggestion or whatever, just do it. But if it comes down to more, you know, things that can go wrong or if they ask you, like, can you accept the garage door if you're here, like, I think that's interesting too, because. Yes, you're right. I've always looked at it as from both points of view and some agreements, some contracts can cover scope creep in different ways.

Some can allow for it. You know, some can charge hourly, some can say, I'm going to create a whole new agreement for you. But to think about it from [00:13:00] that legality standpoint of, Oh, is this covered under insurance, if I'm working in a different part of your home, That we previously did not discuss and that is not listed out because I do like you.

I am very detailed on my scope of work because I don't want anything to remember where I don't want to forget anything, right? I don't want to forget that. But number two, I want to be covered legally. And I also want to charge enough for all of the things that we're doing, right? So I think that it's nice that you'd go into it and say, I would love to do this.

Let's do it. Let's absolutely invite you if you have the time, right? You can totally add on those other things. But you have provisions in place for people to do that. And I think, and you tell them right up front, it sounds like to me, you're very transparent with them about it. You come across more of a victim.

Hashtag victim. No, but what I know, what I truly think is great about it is that you're not wishy washy. You can tell the client, you actually look more professional in my opinion, because you're saying, what I'm hearing you say is like, I've done this before. This has happened before and here's how I handle it.

And there are steps to handle it. Rather [00:14:00] than like running around like a chicken with our heads cut off, like freaking out that somebody has added something on and then saying yes to everything or just completely shutting it down and, you know, saying no to everything. So I love that you have steps in place for that.

So we've talked about the importance of an agreement, the contract, and how you like to have that standardized. Stoke Creep, what about if a client wants to negotiate with you? Tell me how you would approach that situation. There are so many more things than just the price or your hourly or whatever you're, you know, that cost things in a contract.

So for instance, I call it the risk money seesaw. If a client goes, right, if you, if you take on more risk, It's going to be more expensive, less risk, less expensive. So keep that in mind. And there are a few things that you can negotiate about that is not actually your price or your hourly fee. So for instance, liability, for instance, if the client say, okay, I [00:15:00] want to go 500 cheaper on this.

You can say, well, yeah, we could probably do that, but then I want to cap my liability to a thousand dollars total, or you could do like, if you want to go 500 cheaper, I can't do that. But if money is an issue, maybe we can look at the payment plan and you pay less in the beginning and more at the end. You can maybe ask about their time schedule, like, okay, 500 less.

Can we stretch the time schedule? Because the time schedule is sometimes a risk. So, what I always say Before a negotiation or before you talk to the client about the money, think about what you want to achieve, what's important to you in this project, and then always draft your contract before talking to the client.

So you go through everything, what you want you, and when you do that, you kind of start realizing, okay, I want this payment plan, but. I can probably be a little flexible with that. [00:16:00] I, you know, stuff like that. That's fantastic. I, I think that it's really wonderful that you consider it a conversation versus a one way street.

Because sometimes we jump to conclusions as designers and especially as design business owners, where I feel we just get very, you know, we, we do play the victim. We do say, Oh my God, how dare you ask that question when sometimes it is just a question. Sometimes it is an innocent question and we don't have to put up that fight or flight mentality.

We can literally just say, well, tell me more. About what you're needing here. And then, as you said, work through those things and figure out a compromise for everyone. That is something that I think so many designers fail to do is that we don't have a common sense approach. And then, and as you said, it is just talking to them and finding out about what they need.

And then do you suggest having those gray areas sort of. In your head before, Oh, I can, I can go a little bit more here, or I can offer the payment plan or, you know, if they do ask for this, here's how I [00:17:00] would handle that. Because I find that most questions tend to pop up over and over. How do you feel?

Yeah, that's what you do. And it comes naturally. If you start drafting your contract before you talk to the client, you start realizing, okay, here's a few of the negotiation spots that I can do to avoid going directly to the price. So that's great. And I think that your advice, I do think that we do want to make it beautiful and frilly and pretty and light, light and airy because we are so afraid of getting into the nitty gritty of the parts of an agreement of a contract.

And we, you know, we put the flowers on the side and it's like, no, I'm with you. I keep my proposal light and airy, but the proposal also has. You know, the information in there and then the agreement is literally for me, it is as a black and white page, you know, it is pages of black and white words and has my logo at the top and that is it.

And I think that like, as you said, that sends a message of, okay, this is a legal binding agreement that we are going to follow versus you say, Oh, let me just get a [00:18:00] price for working with you. And how do you work and what times do you work and all those things like that. And I think that is a critical part of getting that message across to the client.

Yes. All right. Wow. I could talk about business all day because you know me, I'm a business nerd and you're, and you are great at it too, but I want to talk more about sort of global experience with your company and you, as you said, and I, as I said in the bio, you're Scandinavian and that's a big part of.

It's known for its, uh, simplicity, functionality, beauty. How do you, what do you, first of all, what do you believe are the core principles of Scandinavian design for someone who doesn't know really what that is or who has admired it from afar and maybe want to start bringing pieces of that in? So what are the core principles that you incorporate?

From Scandinavian design into your designs worldwide. Yeah. So, I mean, I would say the three core principles from my perspective are light, warmth, and functionality, not to confuse [00:19:00] with minimalism because Scandinavian design is not minimalistic in my point of view. Tell me what you, what do you do to make it non minimalistic if someone has that in mind?

So tell me an example of how that would look for you. Okay. So I would say, because A lot of my clients go like, Oh, I want Scandinavian, but I don't want it to be cold and minimalist. And I can't deal with that. And I'm like, we're not minimalists at all, actually. Cause so there's the big difference between functionality, functionalism and minimalism.

And my point of view is, for instance, if you have open shelving in your kitchen, Scandinavian design, we would put everything we use on a daily on these shelves. Like. Mugs, cups, plates, teapots, whatever, we would hang our pots on the walls because they're easy to reach. You don't have to look for them when you need them, stuff like that.

That's not minimalism at all. It's basically maximus. If you look at it from a minimalistic [00:20:00] standpoint or like a modern, you know, cold chrome standpoint, Those shelves would be covered by. Uh, decor vases or some crystal thing that you got from your grandma and books, if not cookbooks, why do you put books there?

So that's the difference. So Scandinavian is not minimalistic at all. It's just that every single thing has a function. So we don't use that much decor because our work, our functional pieces, that makes sense. That's a great distinction. I think that clears up a lot of misconceptions that people might have about Scandinavian design.

If you just wanted to bring in like one element of it, would you suggest for someone who has a client who's interested in it, what are your tips on bringing that in slowly to someone and maybe without going full Scandinavian design, right? I get this question a lot. And you know, the light is very important for Scandinavians.

And that's basically because we lack light. Like 90 percent of the year. So natural [00:21:00] light coming in is what you're meaning, right? Okay. Yeah. You see a lot of Scandinavian interiors being white and people find it maybe cold, but they're also warm. Like, so there's warm whites. We work with texture, but we work with a lot of whites just because it reflects light.

Right. So if you want to Scandinavianize, that would be nice. We're gonna trademark it right here. Yeah. It may be a nice, your house from the top of my head. Maybe start by painting your wor walls a warm white. Oh. Um, we don't use a lot of bulky, heavy furniture just because it sucks up a lot of light. Right.

So maybe change out your armchair, do something lighter. Things like that bit. I think that's the, the easiest things to do, maybe. Rip out the window coverings that covers all the natural light you have. And have you ever gone to the point [00:22:00] of, on a renovation, adding more windows and more, just more, actually literally more light coming in from the exterior?

Is that something that's part of your renovation process? Almost always. Almost always, okay. Yeah, very interesting. At the same time, you need to, you need to, Uh, think about the privacy too, right? So, so you can't put too much windows. And if you put windows, maybe you put them higher up for privacy. Yeah. So a clear story, something like that.

Good stuff. Now, as I'm hearing all of this and hearing the Scandinavian influences and knowing how you would piece that together for a client, you mentioned to me that you love to bring the storytelling into the process for your clients, which I'm assuming is letting their clients tell their story and you.

Are the quote writer of their story and helping them bring that to life in their home. So how do you develop that narrative for your clients when they're giving you a story about their home and what they need? How do you bring that to life for them? You know, when you walk through their house, um, as a guest or [00:23:00] even if you live there yourself, I want you, when you walk through their house to understand who lives here without even asking them, Oh, this is a rock star or he must have known Kate Moss.

Why he. Or, for instance, if you have, oh my gosh, let's take my own example because that's easiest. I don't want to put any clients out there. But for instance, we, in our Toronto house that we had a couple of years ago, I put a giant yellow door as an entry door. And this door was a kind of a copy of a Gustavian door, the Swedish Gustavian door in a very traditional Swedish color.

Which is ochre yellow. Um, and that color, I kept repeating a little bit, you know, regular design stuff, but it is a Swedish, very Swedish color. And so I repeated it in a big round window, all the bathroom doors I painted in this yellow color. Uh, [00:24:00] and then my husband is British. So we had a huge painting of Queen Elizabeth in 3D glasses.

Uh, we had a little angel with wings and he had like a British sash like this. Small things, like a little British bus somewhere like that. And then the yellow color also came in. I had like leopard mugs, so a little bit of yellow there. And then we introduced leopard. I kind of try to tell a story through the small things.

So it gets interesting, but also for the people who live there that they feel like they look at the things and they feel at home. I heard something else in that story, too, is the blending of personalities and the blending of the people who live in a home. And I think that's something that a lot of designers fear sometimes is when one spouse is this or one partner is that and the other one wants this.

And I do have some consumers, some homeowners who listen to the podcast. I would love for you to give some advice on, you have [00:25:00] two people, one wants this, the other one wants that, two, you know, totally on the opposite ends of the spectrum, design aesthetics. How do you weave those together in a successful way so that one person's happy and the other person's happy, but they're both living under the same roof, right?

This is the question that everybody wants to know the answer to. I'd love to hear your. solution. I know. I think hire a designer. Moving on. No. End of story. I'm not even kidding. Hire a designer. Well, no, for sure. That's a good thing. But if you don't have the means to do that, I would maybe sit down together, like intentionally sit down together and make a list of Things you like, colors you like, places you've been, if you like to travel, places you've been, try to find common things that you like outside of the design world.

Like don't go directly to, do you like this sofa? Because that's not Really the way to go. And I don't go that way usually. [00:26:00] It's trying to find things like we both like Thailand. We both like ACDC. I don't know. Things like that. Start there. And for instance, sometimes I start my design process with a piece of art.

So maybe it could be like a photography from when you were at an ACDC concert. And you both like this scarf. You like the Burberry check. I don't know. Good. Perfect. We have a color scheme. Yeah, and I find too that as I'm speaking with a couple and they thought that they did not have common ground, it actually comes down to the fact that they've never actually spoken aloud about it.

It's always been in their heads or they've always felt like they could never bring their aesthetic in with their partner. But as you said before, we are kind of a therapist. And by asking those questions of, well, tell me why you like this. Why is this important to you? And why would you want this in your home?

Sometimes they have never even spoken that aloud to the other person. Do you find that too? [00:27:00] Like they just keep it inside until you come up as therapist, Christina, and say, Hey, here's a way to, let's talk about this. Yes. Yes. That's exactly what's happening. And they, usually they just jump right to. Do you like this coffee table?

No! Okay, never mind. But usually, I don't want that person, but usually the husband sometimes, or a lot of times, I come in and the husband goes, I have nothing to, I don't want to, I, you know, and they, you've been there too, right? And then, Until you put a television up that's too small, then he has an opinion, trust me.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And then, and she goes like, I'm like, okay, John, or, Not you, but some other dogs. Yeah. Like, listen, I know you love your camouflage armchair. But that's going to have to go. Okay. And you're going to have to start talking with me. I agree. Both parties should be a part of it. And I actually require that they are there.

If we have an in home consultation, it's [00:28:00] part of my requirement. It's not going to be, Oh, I'm going to meet with one partner and then I'm going to have to speak to the other one later and say the same thing over. No, I need them both there. If you cannot be there, we will reschedule because having them both there.

Well, first of all, I'll get you on some sort of same page, whether or not you can, you want to move forward with both of them, because you will be at some point dealing with both of them throughout the process. And then I actually say at that point, okay, is there a spokesperson for the group? Is there one person who's going to be the mouthpiece of the right cunt?

Who do I communicate with? And then the other part for me, I don't know how you feel about this too. If I do a presentation, I still require that they're both there or they're all there. All parties who were involved are there for the presentation as well, because those are critical points in the process, these milestone dates that you need to have everybody's input on.

Do you do something similar or related to that? Yeah. And I also, I also ask like if the husband. Say, if he says like, okay, it's up to her, happy with wise, happy lives. I hate that by the way. [00:29:00] But then I also say, okay, so she also has the mandate when it comes to money. Right. Boom. Cause that's the worst thing that can happen to a designer is you have one of the parties designing and, you know, wishing and watching, and then the other one is just saying no, because of the money can't work

and also needs to have the mandate for, Uh, taking, uh, making financial decisions. Yes, I love that. So that's really good advice. And as I mentioned before, you work internationally from basically all over the world. Do you have any advice for someone who has always wanted to do that or? Maybe he has been scared to do that, or are there any tips that you would recommend for someone who wants to branch out and just go into not only different parts of the us, which sometimes can be scary enough if you're as, for instance, a United States designer and you're gonna go to a different state, or you know, if you're Australia and we're gonna go to a different part of Australia, work like that can't even be scary enough.

But when [00:30:00] you're branching out to a different country, Mm-Hmm. . That also can get super duper complicated. So tell me about what you would recommend for someone to start doing that. Oh my gosh. And this is going to sound like overwhelming, but it's kind of fun. There is a common law when it comes to business that I think every designer should know about because the United States have signed this and virtually all major trading countries have signed this law and what it means is it steps and if you.

Miss something in your contract, or you don't even have a contract. And this law is called, and I have to read this because I never can't remember it. It's called the UN Conventions on Contracts for the International Sales of Goods or the Vienna Agreement, which is easier to remember. But this law, just take a class in it, understand what it's all about before you do business or especially if you do business abroad.

But this law is applicable to national and [00:31:00] international sales. of goods. And even though it's not directly applicable to services, the principles are basically the same. And interior design usually is a mix of both services and sales of goods, right? So this is a very good law to know. And also important to know is like, for instance, Uh, not all countries have signed this.

So for instance, Great Britain, India, Brazil, and South Africa are countries that hasn't signed, so they have a totally different set of laws than we have. You have to be extra careful when you do businesses in those countries. China, on the other hand, have signed it, praise the Lord. So it's easy, but so this Vienna agreement steps in if you miss something in your contract, or you just.

don't have a contract. It regulates basically everything about contracts and it's very important to know the basics about it. For instance, it regulates when do you have a contract. [00:32:00] And shocker, you don't even have to have a signed document. This is a common misconception like, oh, I don't have a, I don't, we don't have, we don't have a, anything written, so we don't have a contract.

That is BS and it's super dangerous. So for instance, John, we're going to play a game here. Let's see. Okay. Okay. We're going to play it. It's just a game, so you're not going to be legally bound. Okay. Okay. John, I have a plan here and I'm going to sell this to you for a million dollars. I accept. Okay, perfect.

And then, you know, I'm sending you this pen and you go on social media and you brag about your pen and you write with it and everybody can see it. And then I send you the invoice for a million dollars. And you're like. What? No, we don't have anything written, so I'm not going to pay. Well, that's not going to fly, John.

Because you, with your actions, have shown that you understood that we went into a [00:33:00] contract. And it's as simple as that. That's really, really interesting. Yeah, I think you're right. Some people get, first of all, there are a lot of us out there who start out and don't have contracts. An agreement to work with.

We don't have something to even show to the client. And as you said, there are other ways to do that. Can it be harder to prove sometimes? And will it take longer? 100 percent yes, but you're right. It still is a, you know, and we're not attorneys. We're not giving a legal advice here, but of course it is still a transaction that has been documented in some way.

And. I just like, I think that's so cool, but on the flip side, let's just avoid all that and have a good agreement to begin with, right? Make sure it's, it's so much easier to prove. And so, so if you have an agreement that is over this Vienna agreement. So if you have any, anything that's in your agreements, We'll fly over the Vienna agreement, but the Vienna agreement, uh, regulates also non payments, which is amazing, not taking care of goods.

So if your carrier [00:34:00] drops, you're so fine. The pouring rain and it gets destroyed, takes care of that delays. Bad performance. I mean, if the piping, you bought something and the piping is, you know, coming off or different die lots or whatever, it takes care of all of that. And what it doesn't take care of, and I want to talk about this, is your liabilities.

The Vienna Agreement only describes what is primary. But also secondary damages. Can we talk about liabilities for a bit? Let's do. So, a common misconception when it comes to liabilities is that there has to be some sort of common sense, right? You can't be liable for millions and millions. But you can.

There's no limit to the liabilities. So that's why it's so important for you as a designer to have a cap on your liabilities in your contract. Either. It's like, you say it's 1, 000, that's the best thing, if you have a cap and [00:35:00] it's a number, that's the best thing. Second best thing is to take out your secondary liabilities.

And people are like, what are you, what is she talking about? Okay, so I'm going to give you an example. While I was working in the mining industry, we had a truck, it caught fire inside the mine. And if you know anything about mines, like if you get a fire in a mine, it gets smoke filled, uh, you have to evacuate, people can't be there for days, and this also got to the ventilation, the electrical started burning, it was just It was chaos, and you would think, right, that the liabilities for this contractor would be okay, they need to buy a new truck, they need to maybe pay for the ventilation, they need to pay for the electricals.

That's the primary damage. Now, this mine could not open for five days, and they make millions of dollars a day. [00:36:00] That's secondary damage. And if you haven't capped your liabilities, you're going to be liable for that. So, In designer terms, for instance, if you work at a commercial project, let's say you work at a restaurant and you bought a gas range and there's no gas hookup, or somebody said, you made a mistake, you bought a gas range.

The primary liability is you have to buy the right range. Like, right? That's the primary. It's not a big deal. But the secondary liability is that the restaurant can open for three or six or eight weeks. Thanks. While you wait, and they're going to have a loss of income. That's the secondary liability. Wow.

That is really great advice. Something to think about to understand where your liabilities stop on a project, right? I believe my agreement says something to the effect of it's capped at the amount of the item only and no other liabilities can be brought forward, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, something like that.

So that's kind of how we do it. But what. I'm [00:37:00] hearing and yeah, what I'm feeling is something that I didn't do when I first started as a young interior designer in the industry is to even think about these things, to even ponder these things, to even know that they were out there. And I think that the first seed is, you know, what we're doing now, planting that seed, knowing it's there.

The second thing is like, get your butt to an attorney and have them draw up an actual binding agreement, you know, really like, don't try to do this on your own, right? No. Yeah. And have that attorney. Go through the wordings with you so you understand it, because that will make you more confident when your clients start to ask about it.

And you can ask your attorney, okay, what can be negotiated upon, what cannot be negotiated upon. Again, pat on the back, bravo, clap, because I want everybody, you should be able to sit down. And explain your agreement to your client. And you should, by the way, explain your agreement to your client, uh, line by line.

And if they have a question, if they have an issue with something that you can't answer, then you just [00:38:00] pause that and come back to them and say, I will find this answer out for you and come back. But really your job, as you said before, you know, you are a designer, but yes, you're also in sales. You're also in, you know, all these other issues that we could face with our company and you should.

You should flip and know your agreement enough to talk to your client on a understanding level and explain that to them. Do you review your agreement with your clients before they sign? Or how does that work for you? Do you answer questions or? Yeah, I send it over and then I say something in line with, let me know if you have questions or concerns and we'll go through it.

They don't, they're adults, they're grownups. They know how to read and they know English. So. If they assume that they understood it. Yeah. I think there's two things there. I've done both. In the beginning, I did that. And then I flipped over to sending it to them and then having a video reading to review it and require that they do.

But then I also sort of smartened up a bit and decided to video myself reviewing the general points of the agreement. And then now I send [00:39:00] that over to, I know, right? It really has changed everything. So I'll video myself. Here's your agreement. Of course, there are no numbers in here. Your numbers are your specific numbers that you see in front of you.

Okay. I'm going to review the parts of the agreement that I want you to know, and I zip that right over to Vin. That's mind blowing. I'm gonna start doing that. Thank you. It really does, but it cuts back on a lot of the problems and you can still show your personality in the video. It's just a great way to, to send that out.

So, as I mentioned, when I was younger and starting out and a lot of people were in the same boat, they didn't know these things. What other advice might you have for someone who is just starting out? They're excited about design. They're excited about working on homes, but any other tidbits of advice that you might have for someone who's new to the industry or new to the design business side of things?

Yeah, I get an attorney. Right, right. Um, Ooh. And I always say maybe even get like someone to mentor you to, as you know, I'm a business coach or there are lots of coaches out there who can help you do this, but I think having someone on your [00:40:00] side who is in the actual design industry, worked in it, doing it, you know, active in it is really helpful.

And that could just be. That could be as simple as a friend on Instagram, right? Who you befriended and you're DMing. Did you reach out to people in the early stages of your career to ask for advice on things? And if so, how did you find those people? That's a great question because I didn't, I didn't know a lot about business, but I didn't know a lot about business in the design world.

So I, I actually signed up for a design business course. We were, I think we were 12 designers in that course across the U. S. from like Arizona to all the way up to Calgary, Edmonton. I was in Toronto and we went through all the, you know, the business steps and all that, which is great. I think that's the first advice to all the new designers.

Take a business design business course. But the best thing about this course was that after this course, Course ended. We all stayed in touch and we [00:41:00] still are having meetings every second week. We have zoom calls with other designers and you know, high and low, we talk about everything like business.

Chicken, kids, we've had some divorces. It's like, you know, and then you can bring up your problem science or your successes, or you can ask, what software do you use? And Hey, I have problems with SketchUp or whatever. I mean, these, this group of women. Oh my gosh. So I would say, yeah, create your crowd. Uh, get in touch with other designers.

We're not competing. We can't compete. We're artists. So the clients pick us. We're not competing. Competing is down here. We're collaborating. So reach out to other designers, ask for help. We're here to help. Great stuff. I do something in my courses where I create what's called a promise pod and I link other students together who are going through the course, right?

And then they hold themselves accountable in this [00:42:00] promise pod with one another, and they set their times to meet and they do that, which is, it sounds exactly what you're doing. You're speaking about what other things after the fact, I like, for instance, I see you all the time at markets and see you out there talking to people.

Is that part of your plan of, you know, collaboration over competition as well? Yes, I'm a networker. I love social settings. You can't really stop me. I mean, you know, but yeah, I love that. And I love talking to young designers, designers overall. Especially about contracts and business. Cause I think that we have a big issue, uh, regarding that.

So, yeah. I love that. I love that. And there's so many ways to do that. I always tell people don't hide behind your phone on Instagram. It's great to have Instagram friends you can reach out to definitely, but. It's so important now that we can, especially when we were, you know, muted from going out into the world with the pandemic and whatnot.

Now it's, we can do that freely. There's nothing, nothing that can replicate [00:43:00] sitting around a dinner table or having some cocktails with people that you. Really admire that you want to get to know, and then it leads to other things and opportunities. And if you think, Oh, well, that's just a designer.

They're not going to be able to give me other opportunities and help me out. And you help them out. I beg to differ because that designer might have a contact with a brand and that they, they can't work with that brand, but they're going to recommend Christina because Christina is available. And this is her aesthetic more than that person's.

And I just think. That it just builds and builds and builds and builds. And we become a better community because of that. I also think that it creates an open dialogue and you're very open about how you speak about how you run your business and how you got started and what's worked for you and what's not worked for you.

Have you learned some things from other people as well, just in these casual conversations that, you know, out and about at market in different places? And I can't even name them because it's like, it's invaluable to sit down and talk to you, talk to Luann, talk to whomever is there. And you know, you get [00:44:00] tips and tricks and you get connections and all of a sudden someone calls and say, Hey, I can't take on this.

I know you're a Scandinavian expert. Can you help out? Or, I mean, I work with other designers as well. And did you always know that you wanted to stay in that niche of Scandinavia? Or was there a point when you were like, yes, I know this is my background, but I'm interested in somebody else. Or did you always know from the beginning that this is what I want to do?

And I ask that because a lot of designers don't have a niche or aren't able to articulate what their niche is. And it just drives me bananas. And I was there in the beginning too. And I can see how that could be complicated. But on the flip side, you have to have a focus for your business or else you're going to be designing a bunch of blah stuff for everybody versus some fabulous, amazing thing for your target market.

So did you always know that I, I, I have to say I don't have a choice 'cause everything I do tend to be very stat. But that said, [00:45:00] I mean, I work a lot with beach houses, work a lot in South Carolina at the moment and beach houses and coastal design, but everything I do, the Scandinavian shines through and I can't really stop it.

And people want that, they want the simplicity, they want the airiness, they want, like, functionality, so. That's good, but did you ever feel like, oh, I have to be something to everybody, or did you always know, no, I'm going to focus on this? Because I know, again, that's a trap that a lot of us get trapped in early on in our careers, is trying to design.

For everyone else and then you really just come back down to the fact of I'm really darn good at this. So why don't I do this and find the people who love me for doing this aesthetic? Is that how your journey went as well or? Yeah, and again, I mean, if you're starting out as a designer, I think it's hard to kind of niche yourself from the start because you need to take on every job you can and try to build a portfolio and, Well, you're going to, you're going to take that Rococo [00:46:00] interior design, even though you hate it, but just to get something so, but as soon as you can, that's my advice to designers, as soon as you can try to niche yourself.

I always say there are some that just pay the light bill and then there are some that you're going to put on your website. There are those two different projects and then, you know. It doesn't mean you're not as great at the other ones. It's just the fact that those pay the bills sometimes, and you're not going to drag in a 5, 000 per day photography fee for this, but you will get your bills paid, the client will be happy, and then you can just move on with it.

And then, as you said, you get more established and then you can start saying no to the projects that don't. Align with what your aesthetic is. What about like the beliefs and the values side of thing? Do you also have a clear definition of what your business values are and, or your personal values, and then look for that same thing in a client and how does that relationship work if you don't find that right person?

Cause that could be total sabotage to yourself and your business. So yeah, we're talking red flags here. Are we? [00:47:00] Yes. Open. I don't play games, I don't have time for that, and I don't have the brain capacity to do that, so I try to be very, very open, very transparent, and I want my clients to be the same. And I don't, I'm, I'm not here to play games, I'm not trying to trick anyone, and the second I feel like, you know, you got clients that you, you say hello and then they start asking about your trade discounts.

That's not going to turn out well, or there there's the open with what's your hourly fee. Come on. Like there are a few red flags here. If they don't respond, like if you send your welcome package and you try to set up a time and they don't respond. Is that what it's going to be like the whole project is going to be pretty tough, you know?

So things like that, like I, I tried to respond. For instance, if someone emails me, I look at my email. 50 times a day. I try to respond, I mean, if I'm a day late, I'm late. I think it's just a matter of setting those [00:48:00] understandings up for yourself to know what you're comfortable in bending on. You know, we talked about negotiations earlier and how that would work, but.

There's also other things. If you are adamant against working with someone with, you know, X, Y, Z problem, or if they don't agree with you on this and that's your line in the sand, then that is it. And I think that for me going in there, knowing those things, as you said, like knowing that if someone doesn't have the courtesy to, for instance, have their spouse meet me at the consultation, when I've really said, this is how we have to work, then that instantly shows to me a sign of disrespect and a sign of that this is not something that I don't know.

We need to continue on. And I always use the phrase with clients. We have to have a synergy. I tell them we have to have a synergy. We're going to be walking through your house and the most intimate spaces, and you didn't clean up the night before. I can guarantee you there are things that we're going to get closer on.

So let's just put that on the table now and understand. We will be in this marriage of design together, [00:49:00] and it has to work out for both parties. They have to respect us, and then we have to respect them, of course, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't have said it better myself, so yeah. Yeah, it's not always easy, but it's just understanding who you are and what your company stands for is really critical to finding the people who will respect that and want to work with you.

Are there any technologies or anything new? I hate the word trends and I don't really want to use that often. People always want to know that, but is there anything emerging in the world of design that Perhaps you're excited about, or perhaps that, you know, is, and it can be again, it can be technology, it can be a broadening of just open conversations with people like we are having now.

Is there something that you are seeing happening, emerging in the world of design, business, otherwise creative, otherwise whatever that is intriguing or exciting to you, is it AI, anything like that? Of course, AI. I mean, I, and I do think I see it as a resource. I mean, imagine being able to draft your [00:50:00] whole house, like a house or a space in, in SketchUp and then just having an AI make a rendering out of it.

I mean, it, it, we're getting closer by the minute to do something like that. And that is gonna be amazing for us as designers. And then the VR equipment is amazing. I tried, we were in England and my husband's cousin are building, they're building a house, and he was all in, he learned SketchUp and all that just for that house, and he walked.

Wow. I know some friends who do. Yes. I don't have them. No. We could walk his house in SketchUp. We could walk his house in SketchUp. And I was like, I'm getting these, like, I'm, I was sold. It was so cool. Does it worry you as well to think that consumers might have access to things that are exclusive to designers now that maybe the lines are blurring between consumer, uh, where they can reach things that we are exclusively to the design community now, or are you still working on this?

Like I have value to bring, use me [00:51:00] for the value that I have. First of all, I don't think that client want a beautiful home. Um, they don't have time to get into all this, you know, setting up a VR equipment, learning SketchUp. They can go away for and buy stuff already now. So, I mean, I don't feel threatened at all.

I think what you need to do with technology overall is like, just lean into it, learn it. Be positive. Don't demonize technology. We've been demonizing technology. Do you remember when the video recorder came? Exactly, yes. Yeah, we were going to be monsters. All of us watched videos. I always say too, if you're not good at something, hire someone who is.

Work with someone who is. Hire a virtual assistant. Hire someone that they don't have to be in your office physically. As an employee, they can just be someone that you bring on a contract basis and partner with them because they're very good at something. You know, when I was in design school, I knew I hated cat.

I [00:52:00] always hated cat. I never wanted to do cat, but I looked at all the other people in my class and said, Oh, she's good at cat. Oh, she loves cat. Oh, she's had every project done. And then that's who I actually hired in my business afterwards. So for me, I just kept my eyes open for people who were. More talented, better at things.

And that's why you do need to hire professionals to help you do things. And then the professional sometimes can come in the form of designer who maybe has his or her own business, but wants to sort of branch out and do VR work or CAD work, or, you know, sketch up for other people. You don't have to be good at everything.

I guess is what I'm trying to say to be successful. There are people you can partner with and. Have you partnered with people to have helped you, helped you do that? Uh, yes, attorneys, obviously. Attorneys, I'm obviously accountants, but also I have a lady in New York. She helps me with more complicated kitchen project because she is a kitchen expert.

I do fairly complicated kitchens, but if we're doing like kitchens, she's the one I hire on a 1099. My PR [00:53:00] lady, for instance, all the connections, she probably reached out to you. Uh, it's so hard to sell yourself and it's so easy to have a PR person call and say, Hey, this is Christina Richardson. She wants to be in your magazine.

She has this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So much easier for someone else to sell someone else. So I have that. I had an intern, so she helped me with, you know, when we were shooting, she could run around, just get things done. You don't have to feel bad about not being wonderful at everything. No one ever said, when you become an interior designer or an interior design business owner, that you have to be perfect.

And have to know everything. No one ever said that. I remember a firm that I worked with when I first started out. They, we partnered with an architect and gorgeous, Christina, just gorgeous, amazing hospitality projects, restaurant projects, you know, hotel lobbies, all the things, and I come to find out that this architect did not even have his degree.

He hired all of the architects in his firm. To fulfill [00:54:00] his vision. And so this person was putting out to the world, these gorgeous projects, and they were all amazing and all so well done, but the owner never got a degree in architecture. And I just found that so interesting to me that you can get to the path that you want to get, if you are the person who has the vision and the smarts to hire people smarter than you.

But it is that vision, so maybe the architects that worked with him didn't have the vision and he had the vision and so he just needed people to take that vision and relay that in a, you know, a way that worked for everyone in a safe way, all the things, right? Isn't that fun to think that you can do anything you want if you surround yourself with the right people?

Yeah. I mean, I, I agree a hundred percent. You don't have to hire people either. You can, you know, have them as consultants. And so it's easy peasy. Yeah, it is. Old school was like, Oh, I have to bring an employee on. Are they part time? Are they full time? Am I doing benefits? You do not have to do that anymore.

You can hire someone from Scandinavia to [00:55:00] work with you and your firm. Are you in there? Right. So it's just a, It's a very open world, open marketplace that we live in, and the resources are there. I have loved this conversation. I think that it has gone in every which way possible that I love all of those directions.

That is so helpful for people because you are like me, you want to just get the word out. You're very open and honest about that. And I appreciate that. For anyone who wants to find out more about you. And your designs and all the, where you're going to be, all the things, tell them where you hang out on social media, your website, all that fun stuff.

Yeah. So Christina Richards and interiors on Instagram. I'm a TikTok too. And I have a link tree so you can find me on my link tree everywhere on the website and everything. And so if you have any questions, shoot me a DM. I'm always answering, as I said, like, it's a matter of minutes. I can attest to that.

We usually bump into each other at one of the markets and I think you're going to be at High Point Market soon. So we'll see you [00:56:00] there. And then we actually met first time in person at, uh, Venus market, I believe was the first, yeah. So the markets are helpful. So yes, Christina is around. She is there.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, for your insight, your experience. Just your openness, it really does mean a lot to me and the people listening. So thank you so much, Christina. Well, thank you so much for having me, John. This was just So much fun. Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the designer within podcast.

It means the world to me. If you're ready to dive deeper into the topics that we've discussed here, be sure to check out my online coaching and courses program design success academy.com. Here I will teach you everything you need to know to run your interior design. From starting the project all the way to the end, including marketing and pricing your services for profit.

And for more information on this podcast, including how to be a guest or my design services in general, go to johnmcclain. co. That's johnmcclain. co. See you [00:57:00] soon, friend.