The Designer Within
The Designer Within podcast is where creativity and business savvy collide, offering a fresh perspective for interior designers and innovative entrepreneurs.
Created by John McClain, a seasoned creative entrepreneur who’s faced the ups and downs of the industry, this show is all about sharing real, unfiltered insights. If you’re ready to channel the same creativity you use for your clients into your own business, then this podcast is for you.
Join us as we dive deep, reimagine success, and transform both your business and your life from the inside out.
The Designer Within
49: The Intersection of Luxury Design & Entrepreneurship: Jamie Gasparovic on Pricing, Clients, & Confidence
What if you could turn your passion into a thriving career? This week, I sit down with Jamie Gasparovic, the visionary founder and principal designer of Studio Gaspo, to uncover the secrets behind her meteoric rise from a marketing professional to a celebrated interior designer. Jamie takes us through her journey of launching her own firm at just 27, without traditional mentorship, and how sheer determination and self-reliance fueled her success.
Jamie generously shares hard-earned wisdom on valuing your work, setting appropriate pricing, and overcoming the guilt often associated with making money in creative fields. From listing out all deliverables to understanding business expenses, Jamie details practical strategies for setting and communicating prices that reflect the true value of your work. We also discuss client investment expectations, evolving business models, and how to handle the financial transition from salary jobs to self-employment, making this episode a treasure trove of advice for new and seasoned designers alike.
But that's not all; Jamie delves into the softer skills that are crucial for thriving in the design industry. We explore the importance of building confidence, refining your design style, and nurturing essential vendor relationships. Jamie emphasizes the power of education and community, encouraging designers to share their knowledge to elevate the industry collectively. Whether you're just starting out or looking to refine your existing practice, this episode offers actionable insights and inspiration to help you unleash the designer within you.
Find Jamie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/studiogaspo
Find Jamie on her website: https://studiogaspo.com/
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You have to value what you're bringing to the table and really I think it's just as simple as sitting down and listing all of the deliverables that you bring, Do you agree?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. And thinking about again, like all your expenses to just be in business and what you'd like to bring home and put in your pocket and I know a lot of designers aren't paying themselves. You need to pay yourself too. That's important. If this is a business and not a hobby, you need to make money from it. I think a lot of people feel bad about making money, which is just a whole other conversation. But just sit down and, yeah, really list those things out and you'll just start to see oh yeah, this does cost me this much to be open even, and I need to charge accordingly.
Speaker 1:Hey y'all, you're listening to the Designer Within Podcast, episode number 49. Designer Within Podcast, episode number 49. I'm John McClain and welcome to the Designer Within Podcast, the business-minded podcast created for creative entrepreneurs by a creative entrepreneur that's me. I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that can come with our careers, and I'm here to sip and spill the tea with you. It's time to dive deep within yourself and redesign your own business and your life from the inside out. Together, we will uncover secrets and share valuable insights. So prepare for a transformative experience, my friends, because it's time to unleash the designer within. Hello, my friends, welcome to another episode of the Designer Within. I am so happy to have you here.
Speaker 1:On today's episode we have Jamie Desperovic. Jamie is a very talented interior designer, but also you're going to love the conversation with Jamie because we're going to dive deep into her journey, her journey from her past career in marketing and now how she has moved into interior design. We really dive deep into the challenges that she faced when she left her former career, added design school and then added her own business into that, because Jamie, unlike some of us, did not start out working for someone else. She jumped right into working for herself. So she has lots of lessons to teach us about what she learned in that process, some do's and some don'ts and if you are someone who is new on the journey of owning your own business, you're going to particularly love this episode, because Jamie opens up and lets you in on all of the behind the scenes of how she started her business, what she would have changed and basically, the successes and failures that she had that made her who she is today. We talk about the realities of starting a design business overall, and then we go into the importance of the investment amount that the client is spending and the ever-important client expectation. We also talk about evolving business models and services and how Jamie handles her pricing strategies in relation to industry comparison. We also chat about how Jamie loves to plant seeds for future success and how she has further educated herself after design school on her own to further enhance all of her skills in the design business.
Speaker 1:Jamie is an open book. Much like myself, she has a great abundance mindset. She is a talented designer, a talented entrepreneur, and you are going to really enjoy all of the takeaways from this conversation, ranging from business startup to dealing with trades and vendors, to your mindset, to pricing. Everything is in this conversation. Nothing is held back. And here's a little info on Jamie, some official info. Jamie Disparovic is the dynamic founder and principal designer behind her boutique full-service interior design firm, studio Jaspo. Recently, her moody, modern aesthetic has been celebrated by Forbes Architectural Digest Homes and Gardens and Apartment Therapy. With close to a decade of expertise in luxury, large-scale construction, ranging from new builds to full-scope renovations, jamie has created a powerful name for herself in Central Florida. Her robust client list includes professional athletes, entrepreneurs, fortune 500 executives and busy professionals. Today, she partners with prominent builders and architects to design turnkey properties from floor plans to finishes. There you have it. Enjoy this open, honest and revealing conversation with Jamie Desperavik of Studio Gaspo. Jamie, welcome to the Designer Within Podcast.
Speaker 2:Hi, john, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:I am happy to have you here. You are going to be my mindset guru today. We're going to talk about all things mindset with you and lots of other things too, but I can't wait to dive into this conversation because I feel like you have so much to share with everyone about your journey, about what you've learned and about what you've experienced. But I gave everyone, as usual, my sort of professional bio of yourself, but tell everyone how you got involved in interior design and what that led to career-wise for you currently.
Speaker 2:Sure. So this is, like many people, my second career. I was originally in marketing advertising world and I have a business degree which I used to think, oh, I wasted all that time in school doing something else. Like when I was young and dumb I thought that. But now I know it's so valuable and so many transferable skills that helped me in my current business. So I appreciate that background now.
Speaker 2:So I did that for a few years and then just kind of realized like I had always had a passion for design. My mom actually went back to school for design when I was in high school so I knew it was a career path. I feel like a lot of people say I had no idea I could even do that, like I knew. But I thought, oh, that's my passion, but like my professional passion is advertising, my hobby, fun passion is design. But then I just came to the realization like it can actually be the same thing I can work in what I'm actually passionate about, not just quote unquote professionally passionate about.
Speaker 2:So I went back to design school, got my associate's degree in design and I didn't want to open my own thing right away but it sort of ended up happening that way the person I was interning for wanted to hire me but was basically like we can't pay you. We love you, We'd love to hire. Basically like we can't pay you, we love you, we'd love to hire you, but we can't pay you. So I ended up just opening my own firm from there, which I don't necessarily advise. I would have loved to make some mistakes on someone else's dime and be under a little more mentorship, but it's worked out great and I don't like people telling me what to do really. So it's been a good path, owning my own business.
Speaker 1:I'd say it's worked out so far. Yeah, Isn't it funny. I just picked up on something that you said and I felt the same way too. Is that what we enjoy? As far as design and any other career path, we didn't feel initially that it could be a paying career, right? You didn't feel like, oh, someone's going to pay me to do something that I love, and isn't that? Isn't that just a terrible thought that just jumps into our head initially? Right, I felt the same way. Right, it's just so terrible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really is and it's. Yeah, I distinctly remember just having that separation between this is what I love and then this is what I'm professionally interested in. I like it, but it's not like I'm at home at night looking at the latest marketing trends, like pouring over it, like I am with design, and I thought those have to be separate. But again, with some age and wisdom, like I learned, you can be paid for your passion and I think I'm making a lot more money now than I would have been in my marketing career working for a corporation at this point.
Speaker 1:So ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, working for a corporation at this point. So ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, there's the, there's the winning bell right there, because you don't have to connect the ball and chain to your leg and, you know, sludge your way into the office every day and hate what you do. Right, you can actually love what you do and I think actually to your point when you find something that you love, you're going to excel at it and you're going to love it so much that you're going to find a way to make it work. Now you mentioned that you didn't work for someone else in the beginning. You basically jumped in headfirst on your own.
Speaker 1:If you don't mind me asking what age were you when you started working for yourself?
Speaker 2:I was 27 when I opened my business.
Speaker 1:Wow Okay, very good.
Speaker 2:Design school. And, yeah, again, it's not that I thought, oh, I'm never going to work. I think the end game was that I was going to have my own business Again, I'm just very I like to be in charge, just like you said. I don't want to shackle Like you have to be here at this time doing this. I like to do things on my own terms, but I think it would have been nice to have worked for someone else. Just, there's a lot to learn and again, design school does not teach you anything about running a design business, and even having a prior business degree, that doesn't teach you anything about running a design business. There's so many intricate, weird things, so it would have been nice to have a little bit of like behind the curtain, look at someone else's stuff, but I didn't get to do that.
Speaker 1:I also think there's something to be said about just kind of throwing yourself into the fire and really just say, okay, I'm going to be learning by doing and learning by failing. Some of my biggest lessons and I'm sure you as well came from making mistakes and having problems and overcoming those problems. Can you think back to when you first started to maybe? What was a big challenge for you? What was the thing when you first started your business and you were jumping into not only design for yourself but entrepreneurship? Because, as you said, there are two separate things. You can run a business in any type of field and that is entrepreneurship, and that is its own animal, but as a designer, it has its own set of problems. But what was the thing that you were maybe timid about or most scared? Because a lot of people listening to this podcast are considering working in the design industry and maybe are considering graduating design school and working for themselves but what was the thing that you were most afraid of or timid about when you first started your company?
Speaker 2:I don't know if afraid or timid is the word, but I think I had no idea. Just like clients have no idea what things cost, I had no idea, like what things cost, what I should be charging, what a reasonable furniture budget was, all of that stuff. I do not come from a fancy background. My family never had an interior designer. I'm very middle class, whatever. So my concept of what's expensive, especially as a 26 year old in design school, is like very different from an interior design client's concept or what's appropriate if you're hiring a designer in this luxury service. So I distinctly remember having my inquiry form and someone putting like $15,000 as their budget for all these it wasn't a full house but for a lot of things and I was like, oh my God, oh my God In a good way.
Speaker 2:I thought that was insane Insane that someone had a $15,000 budget that I could use. And then now I just think about that. I'm like, oh my God, what can you give $15,000? Nothing. And I'm like, oh my God, what can you give $15,000? Nothing. So it was just.
Speaker 2:I just feel like I was a little naive as to what things cost and I tried to fit a square peg in a round hole with doing furniture for people. And the funny thing is, like, from the get-go I was using trade sources. I had a receiving warehouse, like I was doing all of that, but that is expensive. Like that you have the receiving fees, you have the storage, you have the installation Like it's a whole ordeal and I was really trying to make that work for people that truly didn't have the budget to do that. So that was like a very big thing in the beginning that I think about now. That was like good for you for using trade sources, for doing all this stuff, but there's just a reasonable budget that a client needs to have in order to get that service.
Speaker 1:I love that and I actually had the same experience. I did not grow up in wealth, we were a very middle class family and we didn't have all the things, but I did love design, much like you, and I was like I gravitated toward magazines and home shows and all the things and I felt the same way. I felt that everybody deserves, you know, to have a beautiful home. And I still feel that way. But when did it click for you? When you were like, oh, now I need to sort of differentiate between what I perceive as a quote, unquote expensive home and what someone else. Because you have to remove yourself, right, that variable has to be removed from it. Because I always say what Oprah thinks is expensive is not what I think is expensive. Right, it's two different, two different animals, right? So when did you? Because I have to remove myself from it, sometimes, too, because I can't, yeah, I can't, I can't afford myself if I were to hire myself.
Speaker 2:I'm sure maybe you the same way yes, I say that all the time and that's one of my biggest struggles with this profession Because I am a very like I don't care how much money you have, like personally that doesn't impress me, I don't care about that. But then in my business I need you to have a certain level of wealth and budget to afford my business services. So I have had a hard time kind of drawing that line because I hate the feeling of being snooty or like excluding people because personally I don't care at all. But I think just over it's not like a certain moment, but just over the years of doing projects and really understanding what all is involved with design how much time goes into it, how many logistics there are, just the again like using a receiving warehouse, how much time goes into it, how many logistics there are, just the again like using a receiving warehouse, how much money that costs, and just sort of getting realistic about this is what it takes and there's a budget threshold that you need to have it just kind of the more projects I've done, it's solidified that more and more.
Speaker 2:And again I still struggle Like I hate to tell people no, because I never want to come off as I'm better than you. I'm too good for you. I hate that. There's nothing I hate more in a person than that attitude. So that is like a struggle for me with being in this luxury industry, because I don't feel that way personally. But for business, like it is what it is, there's a certain level we have to meet.
Speaker 1:Totally exactly. It's a luxury industry. It is what it is and the fact that it is meant for people who can afford that luxury, that luxury service, that luxury field that we are in. That is just plain and simple what it is. Have you done anything to sort of cater to those people who maybe want a different part of you, or do you only cater to people who want full service? I get all of Jamie nuts to bolts. Start to finish. What levels of service do you offer within your firm?
Speaker 2:Just curious what you offer to your clients. Yeah, so I used to, I think like everyone when they started, did it all. One random room here, yep, I'll do it, like just furnishing here, just renovating my fireplace, okay, I'm in. And then I think as you grow and as your business evolves, you evolve with the kind of projects you take, and right now we're pretty much just doing full service jobs. I do jobs sometimes that are just construction, like a new build, maybe without the furnishing, or like I have a job right now that's just the furnishing, because it was a spec house that they bought. So I will kind of split it up that way.
Speaker 2:But I think my biggest thing is like I am just a very all or nothing person, like for better or worse.
Speaker 2:So I don't like the thought and I'm not good at like putting lipstick on a pig. If someone's oh, I just want a little something here and here and judge in there and a new mirror, I'm like I don't even know what to do because my mind is snowballing with, yeah, but then we have to rip down that wall, we have to do that and I'm not good at that. There are plenty of people who could just swap out some things and do some finishing touches, and that's not my strong suit. So I don't take those projects and same with a consult, like I tried to do a one hour consult type of thing and I'm like, but I'm telling them ideas and all this stuff and I'm like, okay, but now I want to go source all of those things we talked about and I want to do this and I want to pick your paint. It's hard to stop it. I find it hard to draw a line for myself. So we're pretty much full service.
Speaker 1:It's hard when you're a creative. A client says, oh, I want you to do this one thing, and then you're peeking around the corner and you're saying, but that kitchen is terrible, Right? Have you seen your cabinets? Right? It's so hard to not point out to them how much work needs to be done in the adjacent room, right?
Speaker 2:Wow, and that's why it just like snowballs, and I don't, I just don't. I just like to have ownership over the whole thing when you first started, though take yourself back.
Speaker 1:As you said you would do smaller things. Do you recommend for newer designers to get their foot in the door, to get some experience, to maybe do smaller projects, to sort of get their bearings and get their experience started that way?
Speaker 2:Perhaps I think you have to If anyone has found a way not to call me and tell me. But I think number one again when I started and was doing those smaller projects, I was blown away by a $15,000 budget so I wasn't in the mindset to do the jobs that I'm doing now. If I had a job that I'm doing now, I would have peed my pants or died or something. I could not have wrapped my head around that level of budget and what that requires and I didn't have the experience. So I think it kind of is a natural progression where it's not below anyone to do a smaller job. It's just that helps you get your foot in the door, helps get the ball rolling, you learn some stuff, you make some mistakes on a smaller budget a lot easier to make some mistakes on $15,000 and half a million dollars and you're just you're probably just not ready for those huge jobs out of the gate, like I definitely wasn't, and even yeah, even the mindset like it wasn't there.
Speaker 1:And I think you start honing your personal skills too, with with clients and how to speak with them and basically answering their questions better, and all the things that you just get more comfortable around people and you can anticipate objections and you can help them overcome issues and all the things. So, on that note, when did you start to realize, okay, all the things that I didn't learn in design school, all the things that they didn't teach me? Yes, they taught me how to build models and they taught me how to lay out a floor plan and glue stuff on that?
Speaker 1:I'd never, ever right, right, right right. All those things like which are great, whatever. When did you start to say, okay, jamie, I need to now learn all the other things. I need to now start self-educating myself in other ways to learn these other things? Number one when did you start to do that? And then, how did you start to find those outlets to do so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. So I feel like I can kind of pinpoint it back to August 2022, when I started getting really because. So I had two young children like boom boom and they were home with me like over COVID for a while and they both ended up being in daycare like August 2022. So prior to that, I was sort of being reactive with my business. I was working with a builder, doing a bunch of their custom homes and drowning in work, but had never stopped to be intentional about what kind of business I wanted to run, how I wanted my process to really go, all of those things. And when you're just slammed and kind of treading water trying to get through the next job, through the next job, and you don't take a step back and have that okay, how can I be intentional with what I'm doing? So that's sort of where I was at, up until the point in August 2022 2022 when both my kids went to daycare full time and I had a minute to step back and sort of work on my business instead of in my business.
Speaker 2:And the first thing that I invested in was not even design related. It was like an incubator program for service-based businesses and I think that got the ball rolling on number one, increasing my pricing. Because these people who were not even in the design industry were looking at my pricing going oh my God, quadruple that immediately and I think designers know kind of what pricing should be. But like they were the public, which thinks everything is too expensive, and they were like, oh my God, you're, that's insane. No, I got certain things out of everything I've invested in, but that was a huge one where it's okay. That got the ball rolling on a lot of things, increasing my pricing, really realizing the value that I was bringing to these projects that I was doing.
Speaker 1:I think that's important too, because you mentioned that you were taking on, in the beginning, a lot of projects, a lot of smaller projects, a lot of every type of project.
Speaker 1:Now, when you start to increase your price, you can then be more selective, not only about the type of projects that you have, but the number of projects that you take on, because you can charge more for those projects and then you can take on less projects, be less stressed, hopefully, and then have better quality projects. But I think it's so interesting that you say people from the outside were telling you that you were charging too little for that, because it's one thing for, as you say, for the design community to say you're charging too little, but for the outside world to say that. Did you do a lot of comparisons in the design community? Did you reach out to other designers to say, hey, what do you feel about this? Or did you compare your rates to other people? Because that's like a double edged sword sometimes when we compare ourselves to other designers, because not every designer is doing it the quote right way and not every designer understands how to do it either. So I didn't know. Did you do a lot of comparisons in that aspect?
Speaker 2:So not in the beginning. I really only this is it's. It's crazy to me that this is only about two years ago, because I feel like it's just a different world right now. But at that time I didn't really have other designer friends. I didn't have the design community that I have now.
Speaker 2:I knew one designer who was kind of like a friend of a friend and I remember around that same time like calling her, sort of laying this stuff out for her, and she was like Jamie, you need to increase that for sure. And she is like Jamie, you need to increase that for sure. And she is local too. So same market, say whatever. She knew my level of experience and whatever. And so that was sort of my first reach out about that.
Speaker 2:And I agree it is a double-edged sword, because what someone else is charging really doesn't have anything to do with you, because it depends on what do you want to make, how many projects do you want to do, what's your overhead? What's your overhead, what's your level of deliverables? There are so many different things. But I think, too, it is nice to know what is maybe normal, what is a reasonable range that other people do charge. If I think it's 20 and I hear it's actually 170,.
Speaker 2:You're like, oh shit, maybe I need to like think about that a little bit. And again, coming out of a more traditional career where you're getting paid a salary that's not huge, and then moving to working for yourself, you're thinking like, oh, $75 an hour, that's a lot of money. That's like triple what I was making, that's so much money. And then you're like, but wait, I also have to pay insurance and like for my software and for all this other stuff that you don't really think about. And then you start seeing that and you're like, oh, I need to increase actually what I'm charging.
Speaker 1:Those are all such good points Because, as you say, just the math on the paper seems great compared to what you were making as a quote employee for someone else. But then when you start to add up all the overhead that it takes to just open the door in the morning and run your business as a business owner, it's, oh my god, like it is so much work. And then when you add in an office and you start to add staff and it's just, oh my goodness, it really does add up. And then someone questions your rates and you're like, yeah, it literally is that price and that is the price. Yeah, you're doing what you want from me. I yeah. But what that speaks to to me is that I love that you actually stopped to investigate that and that you actually looked into that, versus just accepting what it should be quote versus what someone told you it should be. You actually took the time to look into it, you took the time to investigate it, you took the time to say, OK, what is right for me?
Speaker 1:But what I hate about it is that our design community and that our school systems and all the educational programs that are out there don't actually facilitate us in understanding this, because I was the same way I started out and I was like charging 50 bucks an hour and I was doing like labor, for I was hanging wallpaper and I was putting tile down.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's what I thought you were supposed to do. I didn't know any better as a young designer. And I was like and then one day my client was like are you sure you're supposed to do? I didn't know any better as a young designer and I was like and then one day my client was like are you sure you're supposed to be doing this? And I was like yeah, yeah, this is what they all do. And then I was like no, this isn't what I'm supposed to do when I started talking to other designers. But yes to your point, you have to value what you're bringing to the table and really I think it's just as simple as sitting down and listing all of the deliverables that you bring. Do you agree?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure, and thinking about again, like all your expenses to just be in business and what you'd like to bring home and put in your pocket and I know a lot of designers aren't paying themselves. You need to pay yourself too. That's important. If this is a business and not a hobby, you need to make money from it. I think a lot of people feel bad about making money, which is just a whole other conversation. But just sit down and, yeah, really list those things out and you'll just start to see, oh yeah, this does cost me this much to be open, even, and I need to charge accordingly.
Speaker 2:Another thing, though, with charging too, is like not comparing to someone else. I think most people, oh, just raise your rate or double your rate, whatever it's like. Your confidence also has to be there, because this is what I can sell myself at right now. This is what I can look someone in the eye and say and feel good about Quadruple that I probably couldn't right now because I'm not there. So I think that's another thing where people make it seem so easy Just raise your prices.
Speaker 1:You have to be able to confidently sell that price as well and believe the value of that. And I think you get there kind of incrementally. I could not agree more. There are so many gurus and coaches and whomever out there who just say double your rates, triple your rates, quadruple your rates, like you say. And it's not as simple as that. If you don't have the chops to bring to the table to deliver a great design plan, or you don't have the backup power to bring what you're going to charge for that, then you can't simply charge those rates. You can charge more perhaps than what you're charging now, but you can't just double your rates without bringing the deliverables to the client and giving them what they're paying for. No one's going to pay you for just doubling your rates without bringing them something that they're paying for. There's no one in their right mind going to pay you for that right. You have to do that and I think you have to work to get there. It doesn't happen overnight, it doesn't happen instantaneously, it doesn't happen when you graduate school right away. It doesn't happen when you just hang your shingle out and start right away. You have to get there and you have to build that confidence for you.
Speaker 1:How did you build your confidence? How did you decide that you wanted to number one, get to the point of raising your rates and growing that way? But what helped you build that confidence? Was it more projects? Was it education? What was the thing that spurred this confidence growth in you? Because I met you online years ago. That's how we met, as most people people do.
Speaker 2:We're like best friends, I meet on the internet, on Instagram, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is weird because we actually lived in the same city for so long and then we actually met in person last fall Last fall, the first time we met in person, which is again so strange. But I've seen a change in you, I've seen a confidence growth in you, even since meeting online. But what do you think has has helped you to get there?
Speaker 2:I think it's a lot of things and, just like everything, it's not one magic bullet. I think people are looking for that in for everything, and it's a lot of little things. It's a lot of seed planting. That's what I'm always thinking about with everything, with my marketing, with confidence, with whatever. I'm just constantly like throwing seeds out there, planting seeds, planting seeds. I might not see it tomorrow, but it's out there, germinating or whatever seeds do so.
Speaker 2:But I think a big one is education and investing in your business. So education in terms of in your craft, so knowing what you're talking about and feeling confident in what you're telling clients about things when it actually comes to design. And then, on the other side, like feeling confident in your business side of things by investing and having a solid process that you can lean on. And I think that that makes you feel confident if you have a clear and repeatable process, because you're not like scrambling every time what am I saying to them this time? Or what am I doing or sounding unsure, because you're sure you know what you're doing. You do the same thing every time and the more you have said that to someone, the easier it gets to say it again.
Speaker 1:And I think people just want to work with confident people, right? People love it when you're confident. You come to a client and you are confident in your pricing, in your design skills, in your team, in the people that you work with in your process. You don't waver in that and a client can pick up on that confidence level and they want to be surrounded by you and your team and that confidence and it makes them feel better knowing that they're going to give you hundreds of thousands of dollars and that you're going to take care of that, because, let's be honest, as you said, this is a luxury service. They're going to give you all this money that they are going to trust you with.
Speaker 1:And part of that confidence, I think, kind of transfers over into trust. Let's kind of pivot into that now because I think that confidence does turn into trust. Let's kind of pivot into that now because I think that confidence does turn into trust. How do you build that trust with a client? Because trust is something that is not really discussed a lot in our industry. I feel it starts with that first phone call personally. But how do you start to build trust with a client and what does that process look like for you in sort of gaining their trust and letting them learn to trust you and your team. In sort of gaining their trust and letting them learn to trust you and your team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and I think, like you were saying, confidence is so key in the client starting to trust you, because they're literally like in our business. I feel like it's pretty rare they're paying you for your opinion. So much of it. That's what they're paying you for. So if you don't have an opinion or you're like wavering, whatever, what are they paying you for? Design is so subjective to that they want to know what you think they need to do. They don't know. That's why they're hiring you and I think it's easier to sell your design when you're confident in it.
Speaker 2:You're confident in what your opinion is and why, and a lot of that, too kind of goes back to the education. Because you can confidently sell someone with kids a sofa that has performance fabric on it, because you know those things, you've educated yourself on the material, on why this is going to hold up for their family, and then you can go sell that with confidence because you know the fact. Versus you know you're okay, this is the sofa you should have. If they give any pushback and you're like, oh yeah, I don't know why it's good, wavering again, then they're going to start questioning well, what does she know about what she's selling us and should we use that and maybe we should look for something different. I just think like you have to come out strong and that builds that trust, and I think so.
Speaker 2:I have two toddlers. I think about this so much, like toddlers and clients, very similar in the way you can not waver or show fear for a second, because if some toddler asks me if we can have waffles and I'm like if you hesitate, then they jump all over that and then they're like beating you down for waffles. It's the same with clients. You just have to have your opinion, have your stance, which is hopefully backed up by some solid facts about the fabric, about the construction, about what they told you they wanted in the first place, why you picked this. You probably have an intent behind it. I hope so. Just have those things and that helps you be confident in what you're selling them.
Speaker 1:What I'm hearing you say is what builds confidence is also being decisive in your answer right.
Speaker 1:So clients don't want that wishy-washiness of someone saying, well, what do you think? And they're not hiring you to say what do you think Right. They don't want that bounce back to them. They want you to be decisive in your answer. And I think you're right, you're 100% right. They want someone to tell them yes, this is what you should do, that's what they're paying you for. What do you think builds that decisiveness? Is it continuing education, also with the products? And if so, how do you continue that? Because I don't think you can ever rest on your laurels and understanding.
Speaker 2:Product knowledge, your design knowledge, all of these things, and I think also just sort of getting reps in of design, even if you don't have a bunch of projects right now. Design a fake project or do a render, do something to just keep building that muscle and learn what is your style, what is your point of view on design, like, why do you think these things go together? I feel like that has helped me a lot. Again, I had a time where I was doing like volume of projects, which I'm not doing now, but I feel like that really helped me to come up with my point of view. Okay, I've blown through all these things. What do I really resonate with from those different design styles? Because you're changing, you evolve.
Speaker 2:But I think, after doing so many reps of design projects, I feel pretty confident in like where my aesthetic is and what my design style is. And it's hard to get there if you're only doing a few projects here and there. Especially when you're starting. You're not necessarily doing projects that are your ideal project or your ideal aesthetic. So just make up your own, even if it's a room. Stick together a mood board out of the bedroom or your own. Up your own, even if it's a room. Stick together a mood board out of the bedroom or your own house or whatever. I think it's important to get the reps in to hone your design style and feel confident in it.
Speaker 1:That is great advice. My pet peeve is when someone says I don't have any clients, I can't work on a project. You can work on a project, honey, anytime you want. You can literally, as you say, jamie, make up a project. You can design an entire 10,000 square foot house right now. There is nothing holding you back. You can go to a design center right now and choose every single thing for a project and hone those skills, and that will help you to become a better designer. It will help you to figure out your design aesthetic and your design style and what your niche is and all the things right.
Speaker 1:That is such great advice for people who are struggling or who are new or who are trying to figure out what their design style is. How soon did you start to move down the pathway of figuring out your design style, what your niche was for design, and then afterwards, when did you figure out who your ideal client was or who your best client was? Because I know that's something that people struggle with as well. A lot of people say I like to design for everything and everyone, and I just feel like that is such a cop out. I don't think that you can ever design for everything and every style, nor should you ever design and could you design for everybody and everyone. So when did you start to figure out and hone in on those two aspects of your business and your design style and person.
Speaker 2:So I feel like a lot of it also goes back to the August 2022 timeframe, because that was a magical year. Yeah, a lot happened, business wise and just transforming.
Speaker 2:Like and the big thing is that I went from being reactive to being proactive with my business and that's huge. And just actually being intentional and thinking about these things, who is my ideal client? What style do I want to do ideally? Because up until that point I had done a bunch of custom home projects all over the board, like one was farmhouse, one was more traditional One I mean we're talking like over 20 custom homes and spray the board of styles. So I feel like I had a taste of a lot of things and I realized by that point okay, this is what I gravitate toward.
Speaker 2:I don't want to do the farmhouse, I don't do super traditional Like. I definitely gravitate toward modern styles, but I always say like warm modern, not like evil, villain lair, like sterile modern. I feel like people hear modern and think God knows what. So but yeah, doing all those projects in a huge variety of styles, sure, I can design anything kind of, but I don't want to and I'm not best serving myself or that client, because there's a designer out there who desperately wants to do super traditional stuff and is going to be way better at it and they have the vendors that support that, they have the trades that support that. All of that stuff.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't know who I'd go to for some super scrolly, ornate thing, because that's not my style. So I feel like you're bringing a better level of service to the client too. And again I feel like you think, oh, an aesthetic like then they all your projects look the same. It's no, it doesn't have to all look the same, but to have sort of like a lane that you're in is helpful, and then you have vendors that support that lane, trades that support that lane, and the client is getting what they really want from you, not just, oh, I guess I'll do this and it's not your best work.
Speaker 1:And they could have had someone that was really excited about that project. Well, I think you work more expeditiously when you have a lane, you know which vendors to go to, as you said, and you know how to design a certain way. I think it's up to you, as a designer, to make it interesting and to make it different, as you said, from project to project Right. As a designer, to make it interesting and to make it different, as you said, from project to project right. But you touched on something there that I think is really, really important, which is vendors and sort of that volume buying power. When you are scattering yourself so thin and you're designing French country and you're designing contemporary and then you're designing modern or whatever, you are literally scattering your resources so thin that you're never going to get buying power with your vendors. Right, when you're going to market, your vendor's going to be like who the heck are you?
Speaker 1:You spent $500 with me last year, right? Can you speak to that? How do you nurture that relationship with vendors? Because I think that's something that I was blown away. I'll just tell you this quick story. I was blown away At last Highpoint Market. I talked to some people who were at market for the first time because they had only been purchasing from retail sources. And I was like, oh my goodness, you don't understand what you are missing by the buying power of purchasing from vendors and getting that trade pricing and all the benefits that come with that. Can you just speak to that and how that's helped you and your company?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's huge. And again, something and I'm trying to think why did I even know to have trade vendors from the get go? I'm not I can't remember why. I knew that because they don't talk about that in school, but I did. But I know a lot of people don't know that and they're just buying from Petter Barn and getting the 20% discount and whatever.
Speaker 2:But furniture is a huge moneymaker for design businesses. If you're buying correctly, so 20% off and then don't even get me started with people giving their discount. But that's not enough to sustain all the work that goes into furniture procurement and the delivery and the installation. And again, I feel like that's something that comes with once you do it. A couple of times sort of like I did, even though I was using trade sources I couldn't even wrap my head around all that was involved with doing furniture like with a receiver, with trade sources. It's a lot.
Speaker 2:So I think your margins need to be high in order to provide that service and also be able to provide good customer service on that service where I'm okay eating a couple things if I need to and I'm not like, oh, this is putting me out of business now If I have a broken chair that the vendor won't reconcile or whatever. You be a really luxury service and give that level of customer service, you need to have good margin, and the way you do that is by having buying power with different vendors. And I will say that there are some vendors that I do a buying group to purchase from, so I don't go directly to them and sometimes my pricing is better. But if your volume's not super high, you might even get better pricing with a buying group or a Daniel Haas club or something like that. So I use a variety of things, but you need to have a good 40, 50, 60% off retail margin to be making money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think the important part of that is that you're bringing something to the client other than what they know.
Speaker 1:They don't know about most of the vendors that we go to market and the products that we see at market and all the beautiful products that we see and can sit and touch and turn the lamps on, and sit in the swivel chair and touch the finish of the light fixture. They don't get to do that because all they're seeing and all that they know which no fault of their own, that's just the way that consumers are led to believe is that that's all that there is, but they don't know about all the other beautiful vendors that are out there. That's part of our job as designers is to bring to them and say, oh my gosh, look, here is visual comfort, here is forehands, here is Vanguard, here is Palachuk, here are all these great vendors that you've probably perhaps never heard of. And here are the reasons why we like to work with them. Because of X, y and Z, right, and that is just another reason of working with a designer, right?
Speaker 1:And I think that's just something that we also bring as a luxury service, as you say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's another value add. You're getting access to stuff that you might not have access to or even if you potentially could access it, like you don't know it exists, so you don't know to access it. So that is a value add. And the retail thing like I was talking about this on Instagram stories the other day, but I'm ordering this one piece retail for this one client who just insisted on having it. They have it in their current house and it's been a freaking nightmare and I still haven't actually ordered the thing.
Speaker 2:It's been weeks because no one will. It's like the runaround no one will get back to me. Call this person, email this person, like it's a nightmare. And then I'm like great, I can't wait until I get this thing ordered. It comes in damaged and then I'm spending two more months trying to hunt them down for that. Right now I'm hunting them down to pay them money and I can't even do that. So God forbid when I need them to help me. So it's just a nightmare and I try not to order retail again. This is sort of a special one-off thing, but there's a lot of reasons why trade sources are preferable.
Speaker 1:I mean, there are some things where I'm like okay that trade sources are preferable.
Speaker 2:I mean, there are some things where I'm like, okay, that's a beautiful mirror. Cb2, I see you, I got you. That's, that's pretty. It's not cb2, by the way, but yeah, cb2 is probably my favorite retail. I'm like don't, don't you see me?
Speaker 1:in my own house. I will me too. Some of their stuff is pretty. I'm like it's so pretty, damn you. But other than that, I don't really like gravitate toward a lot of retail things but. But sometimes I'm like that is so nice and the price is good and they yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is what it is. Let's talk about working with other designers and what we can learn from other designers and sort of that camaraderie. I see it. I keep going back to market because I feel like market is like the ultimate camaraderie. Right, we're having cocktails, we're having dinners, all the things. But do you feel like the industry is a sharing industry these days and that everybody is sharing? And if so, how do you share? What have you learned from other designers? How do you feel that camaraderie is going in our industry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So I feel like it's definitely trending that way now, which makes me happy. I think it didn't used to be and even again, maybe I just wasn't clued in when I was starting, but I feel like even from six years ago, the landscape seems very different, where now there are plenty of podcasts your podcast like there's a bunch of design podcasts where people are just sharing stuff. There's books that people have written, including you, which, by the way, your book is right there.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:I'm getting staged. It's always there, I swear.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I feel like people are sharing and that's becoming more of a thing and I love that because it just helps the whole industry. Like the more knowledge that can be out there, the more people can share their own experiences, missteps, that they've made, good things that they've done, what's worked for them, what hasn't. It just helps everyone sort of elevate the industry, and I think our industry has trouble with garnering respect. Sometimes People think, oh, I could do that, or it's a hobby or whatever, and then maybe newer designers or people that just aren't as educated in the industry and the true ins and outs and what it takes are then feeding into that. So I think the more that we can educate people across the board because it's not necessarily like clients aren't listening to this, but if another designer hears this and is inspired to raise their prices or do wholesale and not pass on their discount, like that helps everyone. When less clients are hearing like, oh, but this person gave me their discount, that's better for all of us. So I do feel like it's moving that direction, which is really nice.
Speaker 2:I have learned a lot from other designers, like I have done multiple courses from other people. I listen to your podcast, leanne's podcast. I have a pretty robust design community at this point, which I told you just two years ago I really didn't, which seems crazy, but I went to design camp in September 2022. So right after August, did that in September and that was a huge game changer in terms of meeting people. That's where I met Nicole. I know that, our mutual friend Nicole, Luann Live.
Speaker 1:You and I were at Luann Live.
Speaker 2:Luann Live. So I've done various in-person and just market and stuff. I love going to market even if I don't have a reason to per se because I just have FOMO if I'm not there and it's like I've met my internet internet friends there and it's just so exciting and sort of gets me jazzed about the industry and my business again. But yeah, I think the design community is huge and there's definitely there's people that aren't about it and that still want to be secretive and whatever, and that's fine, but those are not my people.
Speaker 1:I feel you. I think that it's just all about being open and honest and I hate when people aren't and I hate when people. I said this I did a live with Robin Barron the other day and I meant this, but I hated that, I had to say it. But I feel that in our industry, during COVID and during the pandemic, everyone was being so authentic and honest and just like really raw with their feelings. And now I see it sadly.
Speaker 1:I see some people trending back towards like the prestige and the she, she, she and I'm a fancy designer and all these things, and I'm like can you just please go back to you know, just just be people. We know, we know deep down that we're all just trying our best to work hard and be successful and to work as a great design team for our clients and all the things. So we don't need anything else. We don't need you to pretend to be anything else or to try to be anything else. Just be yourself. We know exactly who you are.
Speaker 1:But unfortunately, I see people trending back and I was afraid they would get back to that point. But I do still see a lot of people like yourself and other people sharing and I always want us to be that way. I always want us to be a community of just openly, honestly sharing and not hiding information, being clear and transparent. I'm that way with clients. I'm that way, sadly, probably oversharing on the podcast sometimes, but it is what it is. You get what you get and I just I feel like that helps us all grow and that helps us all become better, stronger human beings and better, stronger designers.
Speaker 1:And earlier, when you said that everyone wants to sort of pretend that they can do what we do from a 60 second TikTok reel. Sometimes you can't learn how to be a designer in 60 seconds from a reel on Instagram or on TikTok. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time to learn to do that. It's not an overnight process and I can tell apparently, september 2022, really a big, big time for you.
Speaker 2:Big year, yeah, and it goes back to, I think, circling it back to confidence. What are you so afraid of if you're being secretive and you don't want to share? Do you think someone's going to steal your business? There's no way that someone can steal my business, even if you have my exact documents, my exact everything, because you're not me and I just believe that so strongly. That design is such a personal thing. Like you're in people's bedrooms, you're in people's bank accounts, your personality is a huge part of it your aesthetic, your pricing, your process, your personality a million factors where, if someone is my perfect design client, they're not yours and vice versa. What are you trying to like? Have all my stuff, take all my secrets, I don't care. Like you can't do what I do and I can't do what you do. Like we're different people.
Speaker 1:There's plenty to go around, I promise you. There's plenty of clients, there's plenty of people interested, and your best client is not my best client, and vice versa, and I think that that abundance mindset that you have is so refreshing. I wish more people would have it. Instead of working from oh, I don't want you to take this client from me, or I don't want you to take this bit of knowledge from me. No, no, no. Share that knowledge because it will come back to you. I've seen it happen so many times. It will come back to you 10 fold more than you ever ever realize. So this has been so great, so helpful for people. I know they found so many nuggets of information in this conversation. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, sharing your knowledge, sharing your history, sharing your past, your lessons. Tell people where they can find you online and all those places where they can find Jamie on social media and on the website.
Speaker 2:Pretty easy Instagram at Studio Gaspo or my website wwwstudiogaspocom. It's pretty much where I hang out and I'm always happy to again answer DM. Or we say I don't know everything but I'm happy to tell you anything. I know, anything I've experienced. Help you avoid a misstep or what have you.
Speaker 1:Well, that is evident in the conversation today and I will put all of those links, of course, in the show notes so you can click on those. Go find Jamie. I love your stories. By the way, you are very open on your stories and the designs that you are doing. Lately I saw a fireplace recently, gorgeous by the way, were doing. Lately I saw a fireplace recently, gorgeous by the way Just so beautiful. So just keep on keeping on it's beautiful work and thank you for sharing everything today on the podcast. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the Designer Within Podcast. It means the world to me. If you're ready to dive deeper into the topics that we've discussed here, be sure to check out my online coaching and courses program, designsuccessacademycom. Here I will teach you everything you need to know to run your interior design business, from starting the project all the way to the end, including marketing and pricing your services for profit. And for more information on this podcast, including how to be a guest or my design services in general, go to JohnMcClain. Go to johnmcclainco. That's johnmcclainco. See you soon, friend.
