38: Difficult Clients & Difficult Conversations with Valerie Darden

Welcome to an interview episode of The Designer Within with Valerie Darden.
Valerie founded Brexton Cole Interiors in 2014. As the founder, Valerie named her company after her two sons Brexton and Cole. Brexton Cole Interiors have completed multiple residential and commercial design projects all over the US.

Ya'll know me and I love to find out the nitty gritty of the BTS of business operations and the thought process of design, and Valerie delivers!

In this very insightful and informative episode we discuss:
* Client Red Flags: How to notice them and how to deal with them
* Valerie's not-so-great situations with some clients and how her business procedures saved the day
* Valerie and I chat about the importance of transparency and when it perhaps might be "too much" for clients
* Valerie has a brand new book out this fall called "Beautiful Living" and we will talk all about they what, why, and how of her book publishing journey.

Welcome to the podcast, Valerie Darden of Brexton Cole Interiors!

For more on Valerie:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brextoncoleinteriors/
Website: https://brextoncoleinteriors.com/
Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@brextoncoleinteriors
Pre-Order Her Book: https://amzn.to/43eds8S

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Transcript

When do you start to pick up on all of these great characteristics about your ideal client?

Pretty much the discovery call. I can tell by their personality quite often, not all the time, but quite often that they're just chill people. they're kind. I guess the types of questions they ask, if that makes sense. when I go over pricing, when I go over what things cost, I can usually tell within the first five minutes, whether it's going to be a good fit or not,

I'm John McClain and welcome to the designer within podcast, the business minded podcast created for creative entrepreneurs by a creative entrepreneur. That's me. I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that can come with our careers. And I'm here to sip and spill the tea with you. It's time to dive deep within yourself and redesign your own business and your life from the inside out.

Together we will uncover secrets and share valuable insights. So prepare for a transformative experience, my friend, because it's time to unleash the designer within. 

Hey, y'all welcome back to another episode of the designer within I'm John McClain. Happy to have you here. If you're new to the podcast, I know we have a lot of newbies. Coming on board. So happy you're here. It is a fun place to be. It's a fun place to learn. It's a fun place to chat. And the goal where the podcast is that you are just pulling up a chair. 

We are having coffee and we are chatting about all things, design industry. And I am you, we are one in the same, and that is what I love about this. just being able to chat openly. And I love hearing feedback from all of you. So keep it coming. It is great today. 

We are back with another interview episode and I have on the podcast today. Valerie Darden with Brexton Cole Interiors Valerie is a long time Instagram friend and we have actually never met in person. And I know a lot of you out there are the same way we have never met in person, but we feel like we know each other because of Instagram and because of just social media in general. 

this episode is really, good because one of the things that I've always loved about Valerie is that she has been so open and honest about how she runs her business. About how she has ups and downs. She shows a lot of her personal life and I just admire that. And she also has a great new book coming out. 

So we're going to talk about that, but this is a really good kind of BTS behind the scenes episode of her business operations. And I interject a bit, of course, you know, me, I, can't not, not interject. About things. And we just chat about all kinds of fun things. We discuss client red flags, how she notices them and how she deals with them. 

We talked about some of Valerie's not so great situations with some recent clients she had and how she handled those, but also most importantly, how her business procedures save the day. We also talked about the importance of transparency. We both value transparency in our business and love that. And we talked about when it might be too much for clients to have transparency when you. Might want to keep some of the magic behind the scenes. 

Valerie, also, as I said, has a brand new book coming out this fall called a beautiful living and we will talk all about the book. What's inside the book, why she created the book, how she created the book and we will go more in depth on that. Valerie Darden founded Brexton coal interiors in 2014. 

as the founder, she named her company after her two sons, Braxton and Cole. She has completed multiple residential and commercial projects all over the U S since 2014, Valerie has been featured On HDTV, the pioneer woman, the cottage journal, Northern Virginia magazine, one Kings lane, my domain, and more and more and more. 

Brexton Cole interiors has a unique design style that is described by her clients as a sophisticated blend of traditional meets modern. Valerie style is timeless with added touches that meets the modern aesthetic of today's customers. Sit back, relax and enjoy this fun. and very informative interview where the Valerie Darden of Brexton Cole interiors.

Valerie, thank you for being with me on the designer within podcast.

Thank you, John. I'm so excited to be here. 25

I love it. We've been Instagram friends for, it feels like forever It's crazy, right? When you're, when you're friends with someone on social media, and I swear to goodness, it feels like we know each other I love being able to connect in person and having you on the podcast and really getting into the juicy bits of design and all the thing, all the good stuff that's happening in our

Yes.

Yeah, and you have a lot happening these days. So much happening, right? So many things going on.

is a lot of, there is a lot going on. I have my first, book coming out later this fall in 2024, and it's called Beautiful Living. And basically what it is, is it's A chic guide on how everybody can make basically insider design tips, how everybody can make their home amazing. giving trade secrets away, just little tips, of the trade.

Like what size rug do I buy for this room? And what's in style for this year and little things like, how do I, how high do I hang my chandelier above my dining table? And the reason I decided to write that book was because. I was getting not only from my clients, but a lot of DMS on Instagram, as you know, and tick tock.

And a lot of followers were asking, would just come in my DMS and ask me, you know, these types of questions. And I finally thought, you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to just start writing it all down and I'm going to put it in a book. And that's exactly what I did. And I actually in the book put some real questions from.

My followers and some of my clients and, um, we're answering those questions. So it's, it's going to be pretty cool. It's going to be, I haven't seen anything like it before, so it'll be like

I love

your designer with you all the time for any little thing you need, like a cookbook, but for design, if that makes sense.

I mean, you are you are an open book. Literally, you talk about you're like me. You love transparency and you love just putting it all out there. And I and I just applaud you for that. And I want to dive really deep into the book later on for sure. But congratulations on that. First of all, and we're going to go into you.

The why and the how and all the details behind it. Because I know how hard it is to write a book personally. And I know how much work goes into that, but for those who don't know Valerie Darden and your firm, Brixton Cole interiors, tell everybody about you and your firm, because.

When I first found you and found out about you, I was like, Oh, her name's Brexton. It was like, no, no, that's not her name. Her name is Valerie. So tell everybody about that and why the name and what your firm is about and who you are.

Sure. Okay. So Brexton Cole interiors is actually named after my two sons. Brexton and Colt and I didn't name it after myself because I wanted to keep it in the family. So for example, my mother was a designer up in New Jersey. I'm originally from New Jersey. I apologize in advance for the crazy accent that will come through.

I lived there for 30 years, but, I wanted to keep kind of in the family, like I said, because my mother was an interior designer in New Jersey for over 20 years. Uh, she worked at Ethan Allen for about 12 years and then eventually went off on her own. and she does have a degree in interior design.

I don't, she taught me everything she knows about interior design. And this started back in, Oh God. About 2011 or 2012. And my husband, Jonathan and I bought our first house and I had no idea what I was doing. I have a degree in something completely different human services, which is like complete opposite ends of the spectrum.

So I was working full time in human services at the time. And I would call my mother probably three times a day, if not more, asking her design questions like, Hey, I don't know what I'm doing helped me design this house. And she was still in New Jersey at the time. So I probably drove the poor woman crazy.

But luckily I'm an only child. So she was able to take all of my calls and help me long story short. I learned, like I said, everything from her, everything. It was amazing because it was almost like an apprenticeship and it just. Kind of started to roll where I started understanding, the design rules and how things work, color theory, measuring all, all of the things, I guess.

And I decided, like I said, it was about 2012, 2013 to get on Instagram because that's, I remember at the time when everybody was starting Instagram and I thought, you know, why not? And I started posting pictures of my home and my mother's home and slowly but surely I would get messages asking, you know, local people, local followers, if I could help them with their living room or help them with their bedroom.

And I remember the first couple of years acting to these people like, oh, yeah, I know exactly what I'm talking about in reality. When I would help them, I did not know what I was talking about. And I would freak out and call my mom and say, Oh my God, this woman needs help with her dining room. Or this, this couple needs help with their master bedroom.

But. I didn't know what I was doing at the time, but luckily, I learned and it just kind of developed from there. And what I started to help my mother with her projects that she was having, through zoom calls and mood boards that we would do over the computer and send back and forth FaceTime and.

And that's been over 10 years now, and, uh, that's what I've been doing ever since. And it just has kind of evolved where she's up in New Jersey. I'm down here in Virginia, but we sometimes collaborate on projects because, you know, thanks to technology, we can do that. But mainly I have the Virginia clients and the DC clients, and she has the New Jersey, New York clients.

And that's how it kind of worked. And we decided to kind of. So it's, it's my company, but she's kind of in the background. She's 70, so she's about to retire. But when we were thinking about, okay, let's, let's get my business going. What do we name it? And I thought, you know what? I'm going to name it after my two sons because it's fitting.

My mom helped me Start this business. And, um, I'm just going to name it Brexton Cole. And honestly. I thought it was a more chic name than my name, Valerie. So I thought, let's roll with it. And plus my boys liked the idea. Yeah,

very, very chic. I can almost see it like the name of a store or something. It's so chic,

that's what I thought. I was like, you know what? I'm naming it after them. Plus it's like, one of those things where it looks better in writing. And, but yeah, everyone does think my name's Brexton. There, there have been a lot of emails I get and it's like, Hey, Brexton, and I'm like, no, but I guess you should tell my name more.

I'm not, I'm not good at that, but.

Well, two takeaways there that I have. First of all, uh, What a masterclass education to get it from your mother. First of all, to have that, wealth of knowledge at your fingertips and to be able to just call up on her, you know, it's almost like phone a friend. You had phone an expert at any point.

So your clients were so lucky to have you. And then you were lucky to have your mom in the beginning. Right. So that was amazing to have that. I can only think how much help you got from her in the beginning.

it was. It was amazing. I mean, like I said, I still crack up thinking about the beginning of all this and I would act really confident in front of my clients and then I'd go in my call my mom, 

Yeah. Well, you know what? It's I never really call it a fake it till you make it because like we're all just doing the best we can. And we do a really good job with what we know. Right. But if you have someone on speed dial that you can call to get really good advice from like, Hey, I wish I had had that.

I, I didn't have that. But what I feel like is now happening in the industry is that So many designers like me and yourself and other people really are sharing our knowledge with other new designers out there and it is such a sharing industry now. Thank goodness because it wasn't always that way.

But my other take away from that was, um, you know, I wish in the beginning that I had frankly not named McClane Design because now John. As far as longevity, as far as if I ever want to, you know, sell my business. Now it's named after me. And now there are, you know, there's implications with that. And there's sort of ties that happen with that.

So good for you that it's not named after you, because if you ever do want to retire and sell this empire that you've created, it is not your name. So I think that that is actually very, very smart. And it's a piece of advice that I give a lot of young designers these days is to really think about what you actually named your business.

So I think it's great. I

That's awesome. Good.

Yeah. Yeah. You did good. You did good.

All the time. It's like, why didn't you name the business after yourself? And it's like, uh, it just, it kind of worked with whatever, with what we had going on. We're keeping it in the family. My mom, you know, helped me and hopefully it would be cool if my sons took over one day right now they have, they want nothing to do with it, but We're going to work.

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Well, don't tell them about all the nasty, dirty parts behind the scenes. And then they might still want to later on down the road, all the bad parts.

Right.

Keep the, keep it light and airy. Right. Um, speaking of that. I'm very big on transparency. You're very big on transparency.

We've talked about this. I love processes. Do you, yeah. Share your processes with your clients. Are you, are you big on sharing the behind the scenes, you know, how everything is made and how everything is done with your clients. And, and if so, how does that work out with them and do they appreciate it?

Tell me about that part of it.

I'm going to say yes and no for the most part. And yes, I'm very transparent because I feel like design is an art and it's not a science. It's an art. And I, and, and the process can be confusing if you're not in the industry. So what I usually do is, like I said, open transparency. I tell them my process.

I tell them what they're going to get from me. you know, we'll meet, we'll discuss what your style, what your design style is, um, what your budget is, what you're looking for, what, how you use that particular room, how does it function for you? Then the tricky part gets to budgeting. I have, this is just my experience.

It might not be with every designer, but I will have certain clients that. will give me a certain budget and it could be very high or it could be very low. And I noticed when I have the clients with the lower budget, which is fine, I do all types of budgets. Uh, you know, no discrimination here at all. I mean, like I said, I, I started off my house using whatever I could, but this is what I've seen.

That's pretty difficult. It's like, When a client gives me a lower budget, I will be honest with them and say, okay, you could do custom furniture and I'll explain what that is. It's specifically made for you. You're picking fabrics that you're picking. You're picking furniture legs. You're, you're doing everything.

This is, this is going to be extremely well made. It will stay with you forever. Then you could go to the next tier, which is, I'm trying to think of something like crate and barrel. where it's not, it's not bad, but then you can go to the next level, which I call the third tier, which is kind of like buying furniture from target or, and again, nothing's wrong with that at all.

But, but I'm just, I I'm honest with my clients and just tell them, you know, if you buy a sofa from target, for example, or a chair from target, It's not going to last you five years. It's going to probably fall apart eventually, especially if you have kids and pets and I've noticed, um, a lot of clients don't like to hear that, I guess, because they tell me, well, um, I saw this, don't give me a photo of a.

beautiful custom sofa that they found on Pinterest. And I can see that this thing's like 20, 000. But then they'll come back and tell me, well, I found the same thing on Wayfair or Everstock. So why would you ask me to spend 20, 000? And that's when it gets tricky. So, again, nothing's wrong.

for example, I love to use expensive sofas and then depending on the budget at a, at a table or a side table from home goods, if it works in the budget, it doesn't matter to me. As long as it looks good, it looks good, but I do. Tell clients that the higher end stuff is gonna cost you more, and here's why it's going to last you forever.

The seating, the foam is made better that the, the furniture legs are more sturdy. They're made from actual real wood instead of. and I do talk about that in the book, you know, cause that is a common question I get, especially about living room furniture, but that's where it gets a little tricky.

That's great because I feel like you're educating people and that is what the general consumer needs because you do or they do, I should say, see a sofa and on the surface. It looks beautiful. It looks fine. It looks great, but they don't know that the arms are made of cardboard and that if they sit on it, it's going to crumble and they, you know, it looks lovely on the surface and it and they throw some fabric on it.

But as you say, it's going to disintegrate in less than a year. So I love that you're educating. Your clients on that. And thank God you're educating people in your book as well. And I feel like if more designers did what you're doing and just came to the plate and said, okay, client, I see how you could feel this way and that, and that it does look the same, but I'm going to call you out on it and say, you're wrong because this will not last the way that you want it to.

Because at the end of the day. Well, they're going to come back to us regardless, right? They're going to come back to us and say, you sold me something that was terrible and it's your fault. They're going to point the finger at us regardless.

that's happened to me. And I swear to God, we can never win because that's literally that literal example happened to me about two years ago when I was trying to tell this, this client of mine, the whole spiel about. Don't buy a 500 sofa because it will fall apart the first time you sit on it. Of course, the woman bought the 500 sofa from somewhere.

I don't even remember it was from, I was terrified cause I knew it was going to happen. And then maybe six months down the road, she called me and yelled at me for selling her crappy sofa.

it's like, no, no, no, sister. That was not me that you did that yourself. Like that was nothing to do with me. I gave you all the warnings. I gave you all the red flags. You, you took that upon yourself and it's just, it goes back to the old adage. You truly get what you pay for.

You really, really do. You get what you pay for with a good designer like yourself and you get what you pay for it with. Good furnishings and good things for your home. Now, I do agree with you. When you say the high low situation, you can buy something that is. Not going to be used all the time, like the side table or a little accessory for a shelf.

I totally agree with that. There are places where you can cut back do your clients appreciate the fact that you actually are conscientious of their, investment and say, Oh, okay. You're going to spend more on this sofa, but guess what? I'm going to save you some money over here.

Yes. They actually love the, and again, that's in the book as well. All of that type of stuff, like where to save, where to splurge. but I always say for clients, at least before talking about a living room, always splurge on a sofa because it's where you sit. You want to be comfortable if you want a trendy lamp that you could buy at home goods or something that maybe won't be in style five years from now, have at it, but I will tell clients, you know, what the better things to splurge on versus trendy things like I said, a little side table.

Whatever that means, for people, but that's where I usually go with it. I'm very honest just because in the beginning, I, I, in the beginning of this career for me, I wasn't as honest with people, I think because I was afraid intimidated. So I have learned the hard way that over time, it's better to just be upfront with it, no matter if it's, if it's something they don't want to hear necessarily, but.

I feel like it saved me so many times just saying like, okay, look, this is what it is. This is the process. Like you said, you get what you pay for. That's what it's going to be. And it's definitely worked out. And so I would tell any new designer, just be honest. It's a tough process. 

And I think that that is such good advice. And I think that when you do that in the beginning, when everybody's excited about the project, when everybody's like, Oh my gosh, like this is going to be the most beautiful room or the most beautiful house. And, you know, it's in that honeymoon phase, as I call it, when everyone is excited, you're excited.

They're excited. And you just say. Okay. Let's just establish some boundaries. Let's set some rules and let's talk about all the nitty gritty, you know, little dirty things right now and get that off the table. That's when you do it. And then, because they're still excited and they're still really interested in the overall picture.

And then you go back and say, Oh, remember I told you. That if you spend, you know, 500 on this crappy sofa, it's going to fall apart. So let's don't do that, client. You know, let's don't, let's don't do that now.

it always does. I mean, I've had clients where they've contacted, they text messaged me at midnight over stuff, something like that. Like, you know, well, I saw this sofa on, on Amazon and it looks just like the one that, that, that is on this Pinterest photo. What, what, what are you, why are you trying to make me spend more?

And it's midnight and I'm, you know, so that is what happens for those looking to go into this. Field it is. You know, a lot of people. What I find funny, John, is a lot of people, and I spoke to my mother about this so many times before I decided to just full blown go into this field. She said A lot of people think interior design is so glamorous and it's so much fun and I.

at first thought so as well until I learned it wasn't. There are some fun parts, of course. I love designing the rooms and most of the time I love my clients. A lot of them become like family. You're in their space. You get to know them. They're wonderful people. But, There are so many things that are tough in the background, like, uh, really hard work.

And, um, at first I wasn't setting boundaries with clients. Like I said, they would text me at midnight and that would be fine. Um, I did not have a proper contract set up. Granted, this was. 10 years ago at this point. But I definitely will admit I learned the hard way with all that stuff.

Well, you learn the hard way, but you remember forever. That's how I look at it. And I'm the same way I learned. The very, very hard way with lots of things. And those things are lessons that I still am preaching today to the world, which is the reason I do this podcast, which is the reason I do courses for designers.

and I love that you're sharing this information now too, and being upfront about it, because that is how we learn and we grow, and I know you're. Probably still learning and growing every day as well. And every time something happens on a project, I'm like, Oh, let's write that down and let's put that in the contract or the, Oh, let's write that down and put that in my process.

Right. And it's always something else, but the, thing is, and I don't want to discourage people because it is a very complicated industry. There's so many nuts and bolts and things happening behind the scenes, but it is a beautiful. Wonderful industry. And we love what we do. And we are changing lives every day.

And I don't want that to go by the wayside. I don't want people to forget like how much how beautifully the transformations are. And when someone walks into a home and they are tearing up and welling up in their eyes because of the transformation that to me is worth more than any paycheck or as much I should say is any paycheck that the client would give

Oh, wow. Yeah. It, it, and I think you're right. It definitely changes lives. Your space is your home haven. It's, it's where you spend most of your time. You should feel. Safe and comfortable at home. And that is mostly why I love this field. It's like, you're giving people a safe and beautiful haven to go home after a really long work day.

And it's, it's a great feeling. It is that, that, that, that is something that my mother and I did talk about when I started. It's just like, well, there are difficult parts to any job. Of course, it's like, this is so satisfying because yeah. Like when a client walks in their new kitchen and they're seeing.

Everything for the first time and everything come together that you presented them on a mood board. It's just amazing. So I love that part of it too.

Yeah, we have to remember that when the times get tough and when we have those, those problem clients. And speaking of problem clients, we were chatting before we started recording. And you mentioned to me that you've had some, some, some clients who might have been a little, little difficult this, this year and last year.

And I've had those as well. And you have to navigate each one probably. A bit differently, right? Each one's a little different. Each personality is a bit different, and each one has to be handled with kid gloves, and this one has to be spoken to this way, and I'm sure that's maybe your human services degree comes in handy there,

Oh my God. It definitely helped. We're all

But, but tell me, tell me, you know, just whatever you want to share.

I love hearing about other experiences and perhaps it can help other designers to know that we're all rowing in that same boat. Right. So tell me about some of your experiences with some clients that you've had. I

this is one of my favorites because even my husband was confused, which was hilarious. So had a client order a custom settee. And I explained that when a, when a piece is custom, it cannot be returned. I had her sign off at least three times on the fabric. We were choosing the length, everything.

when the piece came in, she loved it. She thought it was beautiful. Two days later, she sent me a text message with the satie and it had what looked like cat. Like if you have a pet, you have like cat claws, I guess. And I also saw that there was fur on the settee. She did not, this is a weird story, but she didn't tell me that she had a cat because every single time I was at her house, which is plenty, the cat was upstairs and completely locked away in a room that we weren't even touching.

She didn't, she never mentioned this to me. And of course, with this particular fabric, you know, I would never have chosen this particular fabric knowing that she had a cat that run the house because it was a little bit delicate. They did not have children. So I'm looking at this photo on my phone and I'm zooming in and I look, I get my husband and I'm like, cause he grew up with like three cats.

His mom and dad love cats. And I'm like, John, my husband's name is John too. Does this look suspicious to you because this has little, what looks like claw marks, like you know how cats dig at stuff? He said absolutely, absolutely, but there's no way to prove it. Because this lady wanted to return the settee and she was screaming at me.

She was screaming at me saying, you know, you, you promised that this would hold up forever. And this fabric sucks. And you gave me bad advice. And she, she called me screaming. She sent nasty emails. I don't know what to do because like I said, I had her sign off on this, like 300 times about like, okay, look, you can't return it.

This is the fabric we're choosing. This is the type of fabric we're choosing. It's meant for this, this, this, and that signed off on it. So finally, after about a week of this, I finally got her to understand and admit to me that she had a cat because she wouldn't admit it. She didn't tell me. I kept asking her, do you have pets in the house that I didn't know about?

She did not admit that she had a cat come to find that she had this big Himalaya, it was a big Himalayan cat. And it was just scratch. I had no idea because like I said, when I've gone to her house. There were no cat, there was no cat food, no toys, no nothing. And like I said, if I had known that I would have never chosen that fabric and she did not tell me, and I always ask clients for the initial interview or consultation, like, okay, do you have kids?

Do you have pets? Because as you know, that helps determine the type of fabric we're going to use. Whoa. So like I said, about this lasted about a week and finally she backed down, but it was a night. And I'm telling you, I would get emails and text messages at midnight by this time I had it in my contract that look, you contact me during business hours.

Don't, no text at 11 o'clock at night. Uh, the weekends are mine. I, you know,

mean, I guess the moral of that story is luckily for you, you did have everything in place to prove that she had signed off on it. So you really didn't have to worry about anything legally, right? Legally, you had nothing to worry about.

right. Cause she was saying like, Oh, I'm gonna. Try to sue you guys. I'm like, what?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have, you have not a leg to stand on lady, first of all, because you signed off on it and that's, and we do the same thing with custom pieces to custom is custom. Like you get it. This is it. This is order. We don't even place the order until you pay 100 percent and until you sign off on everything that we're going to order for you is the way it's going to be.

You're going to take it or not. But the fact that she withheld this information from you is even worse, right? Like, it's almost like she was doing it on purpose. Yes.

it was beyond strange. I had never had that happen to me. Cause like I said, it's one of the first questions I ask people because I want to know what type of fabric is

course.

but no, it was the strangest thing. And she kept saying, well, I bought a chair from Crate and Barrel and I can return that.

Why can't I return this? I was ready to die at that point. I was

I, you know, that's a first. That's a first for me. I've never had a client lie about not having a pet or having a pet. I've never had that happen before. Usually they're just like, Oh yeah, this is Fluffy. Meet Fluffy. Right?

like walking around with the dogs walking around like, why would you have a cat? It was the strangest

It must Valerie. It must be a very evil cat.

I swear. I was like, it was like the cat from hell. Apparently.

Well, and FYI, I would tell her too, like there is no indestructible fabric that is going to resist a cat claw period. Right. There is nothing that's going to completely resist a cat clawing it, so forget it. Unless you put metal, then maybe that's, that's you just sit on a metal park

Right. I'm like that, that's pretty much all I can do. And, and yeah, she, she was, I remember threatening to not only Sue us, but Sue, uh, the furniture, furniture manufacturer and, uh, for their fabric being horrible, oh my God, if I could go back and just look at all these text messages long ago, I deleted it because it was giving me anxiety, but it was one of those things where it was just one of the craziest things that had happened because I, that was a first.

I mean, that was just, that was a first.

And then she

A, a

later and wanted me to do her bedroom. 

okay. Everything's great now. Okay, perfect. Yeah. Yeah.

was fine. So yeah, we're doing that with knowledge that she has the cat. I considered not taking that job. My mom thought

Oh, you did take it. Oh my God, you did take it

I did. And my mom thought I was crazy, but the.

Well, I'm wondering if you are too. Okay.

I took it. I took it. But the funny thing was she profusely apologized. She said, oh, I'm so sorry. my mom's like, you're, you're insane.

You're insane. Why? Why? What are you doing?

Well, you know what? You stood your ground. She learned her lesson. You didn't back down. And maybe now this, this client is like, okay, Valerie is going to stand by her rules and stand by the way she runs her business. And this client learned a lesson. Maybe she's just was trying to make you a pushover and you didn't push over.

You didn't fall over. So good for you. And now is she following the rules now? Is everything okay

good now. I haven't had to, but I have to say I have, I definitely have had circumstances where I've had red flag clients and have not taken jobs. Just because of, personality differences or questions that I, I, one time I had a client that this is a referral client that wanted me to come do an initial consult that was two hours away.

And I said, that's fine, but, I won't put a charge for gas money. I'm going to charge for time and she refused.

sure.

So I didn't take that client, you know, it's. It's stuff like that, I talked to my mom about this, like, would you, I'm not comparing us to lawyers, but it's one of those things where if you're a lawyer, would you not charge for a consultation?

You know, this is our specialty. And I don't know why it seems like people don't respect that as much in design, but I've seen that, but I don't know. It's it's

There's a stigma around our industry. I feel where everyone just looks at us as if like, Oh, I could do that if I wanted to, but I just going to bring you on and pay you whatever I want to pay you.

And you're just doing this for fun too, right? this is just a hobby for you. you're not really doing this as a career, right? And it's like, No, no, this is a career. We, we, we have employees. We have people that depend upon us. We have an office, we have people, This is real, we pay taxes.

This is a whole thing. So I wish that more designers would put out into the world that this is a business that we are running and that we are operating a company. And it is not a hobby business. And if, and I'm not pooping it for people who do it as a hobby, that is fine.

If they do it as such, but those of us like you and myself who operate it as a company, it is a very serious business and we want to make profit and to make profit. Yes, we do have to charge for travel. And yes, we do have to charge for all of our time because our time is our income. And that is just the way it works.

So yeah, I wish that I wish that more consumers could understand how serious we do take our industry and how much we do love what we do. Yes, we love it, love it, love it. But that with a price tag, like everything else in the world that we pay

Right. And it's funny because I hear a lot of graphic designers saying the same thing where it's like somebody. Yeah. Wants a design and, and, you know, they'll say to the graphic designer, can you do this for me? And the graphic designer will say, yes. And then the client gets mad that they want to charge, you know, it's like,

Yeah, yeah.

kind of, it's kind of why I like flat fees a lot, because for me, flat fees allows me to charge by the project, by what I'm delivering, versus being a commodity, trading dollars for time. It allows me to say, Oh, I'm going to give you this wonderful project.

Here is the price for that. So for me, it's a, it's a mind shift for the client to say, yes, I'm going to pay you this lump sum of money. You're going to deliver this beautiful house for us or whatever the project is. And that's how I've tried to shift their minds with it. But even that is difficult sometimes, right?

Even that is difficult to change their minds.

is. It is. I don't know why that is. And my mother said the same thing for years. She's, like I said, 70 years old has been doing this since, oh my God, forever. And she says that all the time where it's just like, it just seems that no matter how many times you explain something or explain the process or explain why things cost money.

Most people get it. Most people are great, but there's just the few out there that every now and then you're like, Oh my, what did I do? But I have to say, like the last couple of years, I have really started spotting the red flags way quicker than I had in past years. I don't say anything to them.

I'm not mean, it's just one of those things where it's just like, you know, our personalities don't. And I can see it and, you know, it's nothing to be unprofessional about, but It's tough. It's tough. And I've spoken to a ton of designers about this, just like, Hey, what's your process when, when you have like a difficult client come through or you think that they're not right for your firm, what's your process?

Because I feel like that has been really tough for me kind of figuring out that, like who's going to be a good client for us? 

to me. It's more kind to say no upfront than it is to drag someone on. it is kinder to cut that off when you know that you're going to say no, eventually. It is much nicer as a business owner and as a responsible human being than just to go ahead and do that as fast as possible.

When you know, it's going to happen. And if I know on the discovery call. It's not going to work out. I do it on the discovery call. I don't waste any more time. I don't go into anything else. So I just, I do it there personally. But, so you've seen the red flags with, you know, these not so great clients.

How do you define your ideal client? Have you, I'm sure that by seeing the bad ones, you've now found the good ones. Right. So have you developed this sort of list of like, Oh my gosh, these are my, these are my people. This is my good. This is my ideal client. Right. Do you have this list of ideal client characteristics?

So what I love, I had wonderful clients lately that, that, that they're, um, they're, it's a 200 year old home and it's amazing. It's going to be in the book. I'm so excited. They were awesome because when a client hires us, they're hiring us for our expertise in the field. And I really appreciate when a client will ask for our advice and they take it.

Because sometimes there are clients that, you know, they won't take your advice. And I'm thinking, well, why'd you hire us? But my ideal client are the people that just really trust you. They put your trust into you. They they've seen your portfolio. They like your work. They know what you're capable of and they just trust you.

They take your advice. They respect your advice. That is my ideal client. And I mean, of course, all, every project is different. Things don't always go smoothly. Like for example, during COVID, there was , tons of things being delivered late. My ideal clients, they understood that it wasn't my fault if something was being delivered late, it wasn't my fault.

As soon as I put the order in, unfortunately, it's out of my hands, just, just real people that are understanding and good. I mean, I always try to be like that too. If there's something that's out of somebody's hands, I'm not going to be a jerk. I'm going to be really nice and say, I understand. And those types of clients have become literal family to me.

You know, just listening and we share ideas. and another thing I love with my ideal client is just the ability to share ideas and they're honest with me about what their budget is, what they like, what they don't like. I even like when people come back and say, Val, I don't like that idea. Cool.

Absolutely. I'm not going to take offense to that. I want to give you what you want. It's your home. I love that, you know, um, so it's really just, I think overall that should be just the clients who listen and are respectful and, we get to bounce off each other. I think those are my people for sure. And every single client I've had like that, their projects have turned out amazing 

do you find this out during the discovery call? Or do you pick up on hints about this? Or do you find this out during the consultation? When do you start to pick up on all of these great characteristics about your ideal client?

Pretty much the discovery call. I can tell by their personality quite often, not all the time, but quite often that they're just chill people. they're kind. I guess the types of questions they ask, if that makes sense. when I go over pricing, when I go over what things cost, like, for example, okay, well, if you want to buy a brand new sofa, that's custom, it's going to be this price versus buying something at pottery barn.

They're really receptive to that, and they understand and don't. Come back and yell at me about the pricing of things. So normally, yeah, I can tell right away when someone's a good fit. and the same goes for the opposite too. I can usually tell within the first five minutes, whether it's going to be a good fit or not, but.

Most of the time I, I seem to like everybody so that,

That's great.

yeah,

That's good. Well, I call your gut instinct, which is to me, your silent business partner. When you're, when your gut is like telling you like, yes, no, yes, no. Like listen to that silent business partner, because it usually knows the answer.

I mean, just like anything to like, if it's like, if you're meeting a new friend or if it's like a dating situation and you're like, Oh my God, my red flags are going off. Something's cause something's crazy here then I always say, yeah, trust your instinct. Trust that red flag. And that is very true.

Exactly. Totally true. So I want to go back to your book and really dive into that before we wrap up today. first of all, congratulations. I know how much work this is having written my own and I know what goes into it. First of all, is was this something that you had always wanted to do was to write a book because I know most designers have this dream and this ideal in their head that they want to do.

So was this something that always on your wish list? Yeah.

No,

No. Okay.

it wasn't. Um, and I think the reason for that is because I got into design. So, so randomly, like the first several years, I was just concentrating so hard on learning the business and perfecting my skills as a designer and working with clients, I had nothing else on my mind at that point. it was actually my husband who gave me the idea to put it into a book, you know, because.

I would be on my phone typing away and he's like, what are you doing? And I said, I'm answering this client about, you know, how many pendants to put above their kitchen, Island, you know, all this stuff. And he's like, this is a wealth of information. Why don't you just put it all together and put it in a book.

And I thought that's not a bad idea. And it kind of just, I started writing things down, um, over the years. And it just, finally I decided, you know what, I'm going to submit this. And I did. And I got the offer and here we are, and now we are several months out. The photography for the book is finished. we are still editing though.

So as soon as we're off here, I'm going to go back and edit some of the things in the book. The book's going to be, it's like I said, it's a cheat guide. It's an interior design cheat guide. So there's a lot of photography and fun diagrams that will give the reader a perspective on how things look, sizes of furniture, um, how to put together a bedroom, a living room, um, how to get the most space out of, if you have a small home, for example.

There's a lot of information in there. Um, so there's a lot of pictures. We even go into color theory and paint and, design myths. Like for example, is it okay to put wallpaper in a bathroom? you know, all of these things, It's a lot. So there's a lot of photography, a lot of photos.

And I did that on purpose because I am a visual learner and when someone is talking to me, I sort of get it, but it's really easy for me. If someone says, here's a photo, here's a diagram. This is what I'm talking about. And that is exactly what I do in the book. I. Will explain something and then I'll say refer to this picture and then the reader can actually see what I'm talking about So I think that was what I stressed to the publisher Like look, I want this to be a very visual book because I'm a visual learner and I feel like a lot of people are especially with design because it's tough to envision things sometimes

That's a lot of work. Oh, my goodness. That's a lot of work to put that together because, I can only imagine how many lessons you're teaching inside of that. But on the flip side, think about how how fewer text messages and how fewer, DMs you're going to have to send now because you can just say, go buy my book. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, it was, it just kind of worked, I mean, it's been really fun, but oh my God, you're so right. When the work part of it, like they're hugged in so many nights when I'm up at midnight, just typing away. And then my editor and publisher will come back to me and say, Hey Valerie, this is good, but can you go into further explanation?

And I do. And I'm. Trying my best, but yeah, that's all right now. We're almost done, but we're just at the point where we're kind of sending emails back and forth and, um, just talking about, you know, Hey, go into more depth here or make this easier to understand. so they're helping me though, because it's like.

Some of the stuff with interior design, people like you and I all say, Oh, that's easy to understand. And they're here to remind me that it's like, no, this isn't basic. This is, you need to go into explanations and they've helped so much. Put it that way. So

And I think that it's just going to be a great resource for new designers as well, it sounds like, and also for homeowners, obviously, but for new designers who are just starting out, it's going to be, it sounds like a great grab and go book for, Oh, what should I do here? And what should I do there?

I mean, sometimes I forget, you know, the one thing I cannot. Oh, I cannot ever remember mattress sizes. I don't know why in the world it will, it always escapes my brain. What is the size of a Cal King? What is the size of an Eastern King? It always escapes my brain. So I don't know if you're putting that in your book or not, but if so, I'll buy it just for that.

we go into everything. I mean, like I said, we go into like what size bed to put in your room. What's the difference between this, you know, uh, everything from like, even. Even how to pick out and spot crappy contractors. If you're, if you're doing a bathroom,

Oh, okay.

So yeah, we, it's covered, it's covered even window treatments.

Like what's the rule or hang a window treatment. What's the, what's the different types of window treatments. What's, how do I style a coffee table? Because, and one of the most common, the most popular questions I get is how do I style a coffee table and I give a little visual. That talks about scale and height and you know, based on what size your coffee table is, what shape here's the best way to do it and they can go to wherever they want to go to shop and pick out fun accessories and style that table up and it's all visual.

Okay,

did not go into that much detail with my book. I literally just kind of hit the highlight part of things, but you are, you are going into the nitty gritty but it becomes a passion project. I understand that part of it. It literally becomes a passion project. I wrote mine during, um, during COVID. And so it was very difficult to, focus on things because we were so busy. Funny enough with design projects, as you know, during COVID.

So I had to pull myself away and, and really focus. I would go to a hotel room and in the middle of Las Vegas, and I would just like hole up and cause no one was in a hotel and I would just stop and force myself. to write. But did you find that there were any parts that were that are most difficult to write?

Were there other parts that are just flowing more freely than others? Or is everything just coming out naturally for you? Or is there some parts that you're having more difficulty in, you know, coming up with the content for for your book? Just curious.

definitely. I actually struggle with. math and numbers because I actually have a learning disability called dyscalculia that it's basically just a math disability where numbers are very difficult for anyone who has. And I struggled my whole life in school with that stuff. So when it comes to measuring what I can do it on my own, it's no problem.

But when it comes to writing about it, that was tough for me because. I was trying to give others an explanation of how to scale things and measure things according to your room and little tips and tricks on that kind of stuff. And like I said, I can do it no problem when I'm in the room, but it was really tough for me to write it out and then make these diagrams showing what I was talking about just because math is so hard for me.

It was crazy because my father was an accountant. I don't know why I was born this way, but it's like that, that part of it has been really tough. So, um, luckily I told my publisher all about that and we've been doing visuals where I've been working back and forth with them with visuals that will help the reader again, better understand what I'm talking about, because as you know, measuring.

Room size scale. It's such an important part of design. You don't want to screw that up, especially with custom furniture. So that was the hardest part for me. Everything else wasn't difficult. It was kind of fun to just kind of go off on these tangents and talk about the different, you know, styles and what's traditional design versus.

Modern design and, all that fun stuff. So, but the math and the numbers part was really hard. Yes,

to me as if it's kind of come full circle. You gained information from your mom and she was this sort of huge resource book of information for you. Now you are providing a resource book of information for the world and it's just. Fabulous. I love that. I love that. You are now giving back what was given to you and also what you've learned, of course, over the all the years in the business.

But it is just do you feel like you're giving now back to the world as well? I

because I, yes, that's exactly, that's another reason why I just wanted to put this book out there for that very reason, because I know like with my struggles with mathematics, I struggled my entire life. I remember even in college, it was a hot mess with me and math. I had to take one course and it was really difficult.

So I try to appreciate there are different people in the world that are good and bad at different things. And with all the questions I was getting with interior design, it's something that everyone wants to know about because everyone wants a space where they're comfortable. And I want to just make it easier for everybody.

Where it's not just this huge puzzle. And I want them to almost have this like interior design Bible where they can just pick up the book and say, okay, I'm buying a whole new, you know, I'm buying everything new for my living room or my, my kid's bedroom or whatever. What size of this do I do? What style do I go to?

How do I even figure out my design style? We even have little quizzes in there like that. how do you figure out your design style? How do you measure a child's room organization? I just wanted the book to be a situation where people can pick it up and just look it up, whatever they need to look up like a dictionary and then put it down on their coffee table and go from there.

don't know how you've had time to do anything else except write this book. It sounds so detailed. Unbelievable. It sounds amazing. and once again, tell tell everyone the name of the book when it comes out and where they can find it. All that good stuff.

So it's called beautiful living. And it's a cheat guide for everything interior design, a visual cheat guide. It should be out by fall 2024. I don't know where it's going to be sold yet, but they're telling me everywhere. I don't know. so I'll get back to you on that. the only thing I have so far is the cover.

They gave me the cover art. It looks pretty cool. It's like a chic Brown, like a dark Brown coffee color book. So it'll be fun. Yeah.

Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And I'm sure you're going to have it on your social media. We'll put it on our social media. And now I will tell you this, just a little forewarning. So I know you put all of this work into getting it out and you're going to feel so accomplished when you see the final book.

That is just the beginning, my dear. When you get the book out, then there's the marketing part of it. That is a whole other, that is a whole other

was just going to ask you about that because my, my, um, publisher just sent me an email, like last Friday saying like, Hey Val, so, you know, we need to set up a meeting about all of the stuff that goes along with it, like the marketing and if you're going on tour and if you're doing this and if you're doing that, I'm like, I haven't even thought about that.

Yeah.

My

12 months after, after the fact, because there are book signings, which is all fun and exciting, but it's also draining. You're always talking about the book and you're promoting the book. But it is fun and wonderful.

And it is great. But just prepare yourself mentally for it. sort of that after publication marketing that you're going to do, which is, which is wonderful. and people, you know, you can build that excitement up for it, but it is, it is great. And I'm so proud of you for putting the book together and congratulations on it.

Again, I know how much goes into that and I know it's going to be a big hit. I love your house, your new house that you're in now. And, uh, it's in the book too, right?

new house is in the book. And then I have a couple of client projects in the book. So we're getting a couple different things and I wanted to do that just so you could see different styles and I had a modern farmhouse project. I put that in there. I had that 200 year old home that I put in there because that was a very traditional, but like stunning historical home that we photographed last month.

That would be in there. And of course my home because I love traditional and then I like eclectic everything. So we definitely give several different. Styles in there. which is good because in the book it's not just for a specific home style. You could use these tips and tricks in any type of home, an apartment, house, doesn't matter what your style is.

They all apply. So it's kind of a cool situation.

Well, your style is beautiful. I love it. I love your design aesthetic. It's truly stunning. I have a question for you before we wrap up. If you were to go back and tell young Valerie starting out again, starting her business now. To do differently. One thing to know or one little bit of information.

and maybe young Val who didn't have her mom to rely on would there be one piece of information that you would give her to know about this industry to know about clients to know about design. and this could be something from your book. It could be anything.

Would there be something even if it's client related design related, what would be the piece of advice that we, you would give young Val to know before she started her company?

not to take things so personally. Like, um, it gets back to most of my clients are fantastic, wonderful people, but kind of like we were talking about earlier, there's always that 1 percent whenever that would happen in the very beginning, I would get so. in my feelings, just, Oh my God, I'm not good.

I shouldn't be doing this. But like, I would, I would cry. And my husband's like, well, you just stop. But if it, even if a client came back to me and they're like, Oh, I love the design, but can you change this? I would get so upset. Like, I'm not doing a good job. Now I look back. I'm like, it's okay. It's okay.

You know? So definitely that would be my piece of advice because I definitely spent Way too long worried about that kind of stuff. Like, Oh, they hate it. They, you know, or if they were, like I said, problem client, I would take it personally. And it's just, as I've grown in this industry, it's just one of those things that I'm like, okay, it is what it is and all I can do.

All any of us designers can do is just be honest and do our best. that is definitely a piece of advice. And I would tell myself to be honest about the process, be honest about what things cost. And I think the clients appreciate that as well, because they're not coming into this situation. where they don't know what things cost and what the process is.

And my experience has been that people love when I go into the explanation. So that's definitely something.

I love it. Oh my gosh. That is. Good, good advice. Write that down everybody. And, and, and I think that is excellent, excellent advice for anyone to listen to that and apply it to their businesses. So Valerie, thank you for being with me today. this has been so fun. Tell everybody how they can. Find out about you, keep up with you, all the good things about where you hang out, social media, website, all that good

Okay. So I'm on Instagram and Tik TOK, and it's just at Brexton Cole interiors. all one word. My website is brextoncoleinteriors. com. And, I should be putting information about the book up there shortly, but I mainly hang out on Instagram because I love just posting. I don't do reels as much as I should, because I just love posting photo, like still photos.

So you can kind of check out the little details, Instagram at brextoncoleinteriors.

Yes, and you do a great job on that. You and I are a little bit old school when it comes to Instagram, I feel. We like the original, the OG gram, right? That's where, I am there as well.

I'm in my forties. I don't, I mean, half the time I'm going to be real. My sons are in the background screaming about something. They're there's two, I have two boys. So they're wrestling upstairs. I'm like, I can't put a real, even though there's music over it. It's like, you're going to hear screaming and drama.

It's like, I'm just going to take a beautiful photo and have everyone check out the details, but

Yes. Well, I appreciate you keeping it real today on this podcast. Thank you so much for being here

you're welcome. I'll talk to you on Instagram.

Yes, you will. And we will see you around. And congratulations again on the book, Valerie.

Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the designer within podcast. It means the world to me. If you're ready to dive deeper into the topics that we've discussed here, be sure to check out my online coaching and courses program, design success academy. com here. I will teach you everything you need to know to run your interior design business.

From starting the project all the way to the end, including marketing and pricing your services for profit. And for more information on this podcast, including how to be a guest or my design services in general, go to johnmcclain. co. That's johnmcclain. co. See you soon, friend.