31: How Relationships Can Grow Your Business Inside & Out With Susan Hayward Interiors

In this episode, I welcome Susan Hayward and Jillian Hayward Schaible. They are are the mother and daughter design team behind the successful firm, Susan Hayward Interiors in Milton Massachusetts. 

In this episode, Susan and Jillian share their interesting insights on how their internal relationship has worked to build a very successful design firm with lots of repeat and long term clients. 

We also discuss:
* How working together actually WORKS for them
* How interior design is not the first career of either designer
* The marketing method that brings in constant business for their firm
* How Susan & Jillian have set themselves apart from other designers in their area
* The transparency method of business operations that they swear by
* How their love of residential design morphed into a successful commercial design division for their company.

I know you'll enjoy this fun and very insightful episode with Susan and Jillian of Susan Hayward Interiors.

For more information about Susan Hayward Interiors, visit them at:
https://www.susanhaywardinteriors.com/
or on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/suhayinteriors/?hl=en

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https://www.mydomastudio.com/john/ 

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Transcript

Hey, y'all, you're listening to the designer within podcast with John McClain episode number 31.

I'm John McClain and welcome to the designer within podcast, the business minded podcast created for creative entrepreneurs by a creative entrepreneur. That's me. I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that can come with our careers. And I'm here to sip and spill the tea with you. It's time to dive deep within yourself and redesign your own business and your life from the inside out.

Together we will uncover secrets and share valuable insights. So prepare for a transformative experience, my friend, because it's time to unleash the designer within.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the designer within happy to have you here. today. We are back with another interview episode.

I'm happy to bring on Susan Hayward and Jillian Hayward Schaible. 

They are with Susan Hayward interiors and they are a mother and daughter team of designers. And you are going to really love this episode. Especially, if you have ever thought about working with a family member, I love the dynamics that they are going to share with us and their working relationship in their personal relationships, but we're also going to dive into how they have made their business successful. And especially how they have embraced clarity and how they love honesty and openness when working with their clients. You're going to find out some marketing measures that they use, some that worked for them and some that don't work for them. And what I think was so interesting in this interview was that not only do we discuss the relationship, of course, that a mother and daughter have, and that they have in their personal lives and in their working relationships. But what you're going to see is one of the keys to their success is how they develop the relationships with their clients and how they put their clients to the number one position and the strategic way that, that has placed them at the top of the list of designers in their area, And we're also going to find out what is their secret sauce to success. This is a great episode for. For everybody you're going to find. lots of business advice for yourself in this interview today with Susan and Jillian.

and Susan Hayward, but yet her firm with a simple philosophy that interior design should reflect the personality and lifestyle of the client. 

Not the interior designer joined by her daughter, Jillian Hayward Schaible the mother daughter team strive to uncover every client's unique taste and personal style, whether they are designed for residential or commercial projects. Susan and Jillian approach, every design with the needs of the space at the forefront. 

It is not enough for a room to just look good. It has to work well and function. 

And you will find out today in this episode. Exactly how they bring those projects to life. And the passion that these two ladies have is going to come through your earbuds are on YouTube or wherever you're listening or watching this episode. 

And by the way, if you do want to watch us on YouTube now, Remember all of the episodes are also on YouTube and the interview episodes have a video with them. So head on over to YouTube. To John McClain design and you can see all of the episodes there. And actually see the people that I'm interviewing.

 So without further ado, let me welcome Susan and Jillian to the podcast.

susan and Jillian, welcome to the Designer within podcast.

Hi, John. Thank you for having us.

I'm so happy to have you both here today. I love this dynamic that you two have and we're going to of course talk more about that on today's episode, it is a.

A family dynamic, a mother and daughter dynamic to be specific. But before we get into all of that and all the great things that you guys have to share about yourselves and your business and the lessons you've learned, who wants to take the ball and tell me a little bit about your firm and about your company and all the things, that you guys offer.

Sure. Sure. I started this firm probably about, oh, 22 years ago, and we just, I just started it more with wanting to offer something a little bit different, something that we didn't really have around this area. And that was just, um, being more available, having a more transparent system of billing for people to, to take away that mystique of the interior designer coming in.

And, um, just kind of taking over your space. You know, we've always gone into all of our. Project saying that this is about you. It's not about me. Number one, this is a marriage and we hope it's gonna work out great, but sometimes it doesn't. And if it doesn't, you know, we, we look for all of those things that you do when a marriage isn't working either.

we always say to our client that when we leave. The job. We want you to love your space more in six months than you do now. That's how we know that we'll be successful. And if you are looking for something else in six months, there's never a question about who you're gonna call. So often we would hear from clients that, oh yeah, I've worked with designers before.

We say we wanna be your last designer. You know, we don't ever wanna have you say that about us to anyone. Again, so that was sort of the, the mindset and the feeling that we have taken in. And it's funny because when, when usually one of the questions we always get get asked is, how do you maintain communication with your clients?

You know, after it's done, what do you do to kind of keep that going? And we say they never leave. Like we feel like we're always like probably 90% of our clients. Are always around. We're either doing another home, another part of the house, we're doing their neighbor down the street. Um, we kind of feel like they're, they're, we may even be doing business with them.

You know, we have a client that's a contractor, so we. We refer them to other jobs and use them. Um, so that's just a little bit about the feeling of our business. It's very family oriented. We are a family. We want our, our, um, approach to everything to have that same sort of life and family and kind of all this in this together.

And that's sort of is, is how Jill got into this a little bit. And I'll let her go into, you know, some of that herself. But it sort of evolved of how we went from. A business, a solo business, to slowly bringing in Jill. And it was um, I think just more an evolution. You know, she can talk to you a little bit about what her background was, but I needed help with small things and she happened to have some extra time, you know, do some mood boards, do some technology things 

and Susan, where are you guys physically located? Where are your off? Where's your office?

We're in Milton, Massachusetts, which is about eight miles south of Boston.

Okay. Okay, great. And, and then do you service just that area or do you and

No, no, we really spread out a lot. In fact, we have clients that have homes in other areas. We will do that as well. Um, we, and that's sort of how we got into commercial from some of our clients, then going into their businesses and, and moving on. So everything has sort of started like this and just kind of went this way, which is what we want everyone's business to do.

Right.

Right, right.

That's kind of the goal is, you know, you kind of start and you just want to keep on expanding.

I love that you mentioned that it's, uh, not only relationship with your family and, and Jill and you guys inside the company, but also you want a relationship with your clients. And I call it the grocery store test, where if I see you in the grocery store and you, I want you to run up and hug me and say, Hey, how are you?

And not turn the other way. Right. And I think that's what you're saying here is

For sure.

to. You know, still, still come to see you for different things down the road. And it is, it's the warm and fuzzies right.

For sure, for sure.

What are your keys for doing that? What are your keys? What do you feel as part of, just, other than just good service, what do you feel are keys for, for, for, for that longevity of a client?

Because I think, you know, so many of us as designers, we're trying to find that next new client, but I think there's so many designers who have these great clients in our back pockets who are former clients and we tend to neglect them sometimes, but how do you, how do you nurture those clients who.

You know, you might have had two years ago, five years ago, even 10 years ago.

Sure. Well, we try. We start it from the minute we walk in the door. You know, we always try to be as honest as we can about every single part of the relationship, and we try to find out as much as we can about the client, first of all. And I think if you're always listening, I. It not doing so much talking, but doing a whole lot of listening.

You are finding out so much about your clients. You're finding out about their lives. I mean, let's face it, we do intimate things. We're, we're doing people's bedrooms, we're doing their bathrooms, we're doing their kitchen, we're doing their private family room space. So you know all the questions that you're asking in the things that you want to know to make that really, really be special for them.

You really are creating a bond. So just like you'd create a bond with a friend, um, or a business associate, you're creating a bond and you wanna do everything you can to maintain that bond. We send, you know, cards and gifts for birthdays and holiday gifts, and we're forever trying to be there with them.

Um, you know, if, if we find out one of their children is sick, we'll send a, you know, a card or a text message or something. So we, we just try to nurture it all the time. It just never really stops.

Jill you, you and your mom have such varied backgrounds and I feel, I kind of call it the sliding scale of skills, is how I refer to it in my own life, because I have these skill sets that I bring from other, you know, jobs and careers that I've had. And I know Susan, you do too, and Jill, you do as well, but. Tell me about Jill. Tell me about your background. Uh, it's particularly interesting, I, I believe some people will find, uh, especially the zookeeper part of your background. But tell me about your background and then more importantly, how you sort of have transferred that into design and maybe what overlapping areas you see within your past careers and your past, you know, past life, quote unquote, and where you are now in your design industry career.

Sure. Yeah. So my first love was everything, science and nature. Um, so that's how I found myself in Zookeeping. Um, I actually moved to Florida and my, my degree was in marine biology, and the thing that I could find closest to doing marine biology was actually at a zoo. Um, so that's how I got, I, uh, started there.

And I love animals. I love science and, in a new field like Zookeeping that I really had no background in other than just, you know, knowledge of biology, I was always thinking on my toes in scary situations emotionally and physically, and really just having to. Really empower myself to, you know, get through the day, get through the week, and figure out new ways to solve problems.

Um, so that kind of applies in, I would say, any career, but especially in design. because, we're always solving issues and kind of running into emergency, you know, fixes that we need to be there for. So I think that learning how to trust myself in those situations and just knowing that. You, you can do it.

You know, you just gotta push through. I think that that was really the, the biggest thing I took from that.

I love that. , that is really, really true. A lot of thinking on your feet, a lot of, jumping from one thing to the other and your day, your whole day can change in an instant with what we do. Of course. Right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

And then Susan, tell me about your background. As you said, you have a, a different, you, you didn't come straight into the design industry either. 

No, I started out in public relations and development and did that for quite a few years, and then my husband and I decided to start a photography business together. So we did, we, we have two fa, I have two family businesses. I have one with my husband and then I have one with Jillian. So, um, after many, many years of a photography business where I did most of the business and my husband was the photographer, he took care of that end of the business.

The business grew. Um. And the things that I was doing, I didn't necessarily have to give my full attention anymore. So I went back to school when my kids were in school and got a degree in interior design and kind of hit the ground running. Um, you know, it's funny when you go back to school. When you're a little bit older and start a business a little bit older, you've already networked.

You already have people that you know, so you really can hit the ground running, and that is what what I did, and it hasn't stopped yet. So we've been very, very fortunate.

I remember design is my second career, third, fourth, I don't even know anymore. But I 

remember going back and sitting in a classroom with, uh, you know, with these really lot, much younger people and hearing things that they were saying, and it, it is just a different mindset that you have to put yourself into, but also. I found that I was Maybe you too. I was a lot more focused at that 

Is totally. 

Yeah. So for me, I was like, Nope, this is it. I'm gonna do it. I know what I want to do, rather than, you know, my first degree is in business, which is fine, but it wasn't my love, it wasn't my passion, it wasn't what I wanted to do.

And you know, I think we tend to find our passions sometimes later in life, uh, as, as we all are proof of here, I believe.

For sure. You're never too old to learn something new.

Nope. Never. Never, never. So you mentioned earlier we were talking offline and before we chatted, that design in your area has had a reputation over the years and it's had sort of a format that it's followed , and a way that people have perceived it.

But Jill, tell me about how you guys in your firm have changed the perception of design in your area and how people are reacting to that change.

Sure. So what we were talking about earlier is, our design in the Boston area has really been kind of this, um, untouchable, almost scary for clients. To jump into because it's this unknown entity. And what we kept hearing from people was that they felt like they never quite knew where they were at in terms of, you know, billing and just transparency with, you know, um, the invoicing system and how, how billing hours work and how markups work and all of that.

So. We took that and we really wanted to create a business that was accessible for anyone depending on the size of the project, whether it's a small residential project, a larger commercial project. And we really wanted something that was, um, something that people could feel good about doing. And I, we never wanted anyone to ever worry where they were at.

So our, you know, business structure and our pricing structure. We just wanted to be super transparent from the time they sign with us to the time that they leave. And we, Susan and I joke all the time, we say that, you know, we have clients for life. Um, so they just move from, you know, one house to the next, or one room to the next.

And we find that we really, our clients truly have been with us since they started. They don't ever leave, which we love.

of The client that we have right now, and it's, it's probably our favorite client

that we have this beautiful, beautiful home and, um, we had a contractor come in to take a look and the contractor kind of, um. The client asked the contractor, how did you first meet Susan?

So he went through this whole thing about how well she did our first house and it was a house like this. It was a big old house, and kind of went through that. And then we moved and she did the second house. So it, it's that same sort of thing that it's just like building of relationships.

I agree. It is. It is so much about relationship building. And it's just so much about growing that relationship. And I always say selling is serving. And if you're serving someone in a truly, natural, authentic way where you care, and I can tell, I can tell from you too, that you care about your, your career, your business.

And I can, I can tell you care a lot about your clients, and I'm sure your clients feel the same way. What has their feedback been? Because I feel that this whole relationship category is, is something that a lot of people, again, tend to overlook. We wanna just move on to the next new client.

But what is the reaction from your client? What is your feedback from them? How do you know, that they're receiving this? How do you know, other than just new projects, do they tell you that they see something different in you, for instance, than they see in other people and other, you know, designers in the area?

Yeah, definitely. Um, that's a great question. I think. It could partly be because we are a family business that our new clients intrinsically know that family means a lot to us and. Especially for residential projects, it's a very intimate job that we have. We're in these people's homes and, you know, they don't know us at first, but we need to know the most, you know, private parts of their lives.

Like, how do you sleep at night? Do you sleep on your side? Do you sleep on your back? Do you, what types of materials do you like to sleep in? So it really is this very emotionally charged job that, you know, we have going in. And I think that. Being a Mother-daughter team, we sort of have a leg up just because our clients know that we care about our family and we're gonna care about their family as well.

Um, it's just something that we value and I think that that comes across.

that's so great. Now, Susan, when when Jill joined and you decided to make this a family event, a family group, a family business, was it out of necessity? Were you like, oh my gosh, I have. Have to have some help because I know firsthand that it can get overwhelming as a solopreneur where you're like, I can't put one more flipping thing on my plate and do one more thing. Was it just like, was it that, and oh my gosh, my daughter is an amazing designer. I wanna bring her on and I trust her, and all the good things like that. Or was, how did that even come about?

It was kind of a little bit of everything. You know, having the photography business, we had some support services there that we would use, so, you know, the business end of it. But, but as far as design, I was really the only, the only designer. And then, you know, we all know our strengths and weaknesses. My weakness.

Is technology. You know, I am technologically challenged, as I say to my clients, and fortunately Jillian is not. She's very, very adept at everything technology related. And when she was in in Florida, she had some extra time and she was like, here, you know, I let me do that for you. I can do some mood boards, I can put together a few things.

And as she kind of progressed, I think through doing these, she was like. I really love this. And Jill's was

a 

like. 

spouse. I was like, this is the best, right? Jill was a military spouse. Her husband was a Navy helicopter pilot and they were moving around a lot. So she was like, well, this is great for me too because as we're moving along and moving around, I can do this as we, as we go.

So she chose to go back to school, get, get some. Education for that 'cause I felt that was really important because it was helpful for me. It was, you know, I don't, I think you have to have more than just a good design. Style or, um, you don't know how to look at floor plans and to really know all of the important details that go into design. So that was why I think we both felt that was important for her to go back to school. And let's face it, what mother would not like be out of her mind like. Thrilled to work with her daughter, my daughter. We're, we're like best friends. Like we can tell each other anything. We sometimes, um, we're so incredibly honest with each other that it makes for our business.

Um, I think and for our clients so much better. Um, they get a little of everything. If I'm going down one track and Jill doesn't feel that it's really the best way to go, she'll say. I don't think that's the right idea. I think we need to do this or we need to throw more of this in. And I'll be like, great, that sounds wonderful.

Let's kind of pitch it and do it in that direction. So I think that gives our clients like this really broad range of style, because I'm a little bit more traditional. Jillian is definitely more of a west coast vibe. I'm a little older. She's a more youthful. So I think everything just melds together, um, to kind of help our clients in the long run.

They, they're the, all the better for it.

Okay. That sounds all lovely on the surface, but there has to be, I mean, there has to be times when Jill, that things just don't always go as. Planned right. Because I know my husband and I, we worked together for three years, I'll tell you, and we didn't. He does not do design. I begged him to come and help me start my company years ago and, and the only thing that he did was working in the office and he did all the behind the scenes stuff. And at the end of the day we're like, what did you do all day? And well, you know what I did all day Because you were there. How was your day? Same as your, I'm trying

times. the, it's, it there are combative moments or are other issues that come up because of the family dynamic where you can't separate, or do you two have lines that you've drawn where you're saying, Nope, we're going to stop here and we're going to separate truly our business from our family life?

Because I think a lot of people, I. Perhaps have family members that they want to bring into their companies and they just don't know how to do it in the right way. So I I, I, it sounds flippant when I say it, but I think a lot of people truly are concerned about bringing a family member into their business because they are just concerned about the dynamics.

I. During the day and the dynamics at a, at a picnic on the weekend. So how did you two balance that to where, you know, as, as Susan is saying you're truthful to her, Jillian, but

you know, where there's no hard feelings.

Yeah, I think, um, starting out, I, I can't imagine going into business with my husband. I think that would be way harder, um, because. My, as my mom said, we are best friends. We are just so honest with each other about everything. But I think the most important part about our business and relationship within our business, both personally and professionally, is that we.

Always, always give each other the benefit of the doubt. And before anything, we just have each other's backs always. So I think that, you know, whether I drop the ball on something or Susan drops the ball on something, or there's some, you know, um, I don't know, catastrophe that we're trying to deal with, I think I, I truly can't think of one single time where either one of us has blamed the other or gotten upset with each other just because.

We are just in it together and we just, okay, you know, I've got this, or we're just solution based really. Um, 

I know it's not as juicy of an answer probably, but we really do just work so great together and it's just this perfect, honest relationship where we really are just trying to lift each other up.

We, we really never tear into each other. I can honestly say.

No, I love it. What I'm hearing is I, I and I, and I wasn't trying to pry for information to, I was just trying to, you know, figure out like what the dynamic is that makes it successful. But what I'm hearing is, is open, honest, clear 

communication with, with not only you two. But with your clients. And I think that is the key because when we hide behind our feelings and we don't tell our coworkers whether they're family members or not, when we hide behind those feelings and don't tell the truth and don't say what we're, you know, truly feeling deep down things can digress.

And then we dig our own little pity party hole in our, in our own head. And, uh, I think just by being transparent with each other. The problem is solved and it moves on. And I think that is what I'm hearing from the two of you. And that's beautiful and wonderful. And I think that that could apply to whether you are a family member working together or whether you're listening and you're a solopreneur and you want to bring on any team member. again, the lesson that I'm taking away is clear, open, honest, transparent communication on all aspects of your business.

Is also great. We don't live together,

you know, so at the 

end of the day we're going in different directions.

And if it is the weekend, um, she knows my schedule. I know her schedule, I know when she's gonna be out with her twins and I'm not gonna ask her business question when she's out with her 4-year-old twins 'cause I'm not gonna get her attention.

So like, things like that, it's like we sort of know when work ends. I think when you're living together, you know, um, I know I work with my husband as well, that's a whole different thing. Sometimes it's hard at the end of the day to shut it off

and sometimes, you know, the opposite. It's hard at the end of the day because you've already seen each other all day.

So there's nothing like, what was new with you today, honey? Like, I already know everything.

So it's a whole different dynamic.

That's great. That's great. Back to the whole transparency with your client situation. You mentioned that you're, you're straightforward, Jillian, with clients from the, from the minute they contact you all the way to the end. What does your onboarding process look like for clients?

So. I'm a new client. I

call you guys and I'm interested in working with you. What does that general onboarding process look like? And how do you start that, that transparency conversation from the beginning to start to gain their trust from the get go? Because I think that first point of contact, in my opinion, is crucial to start that feeling and that trusting and that relationship to, to start to really grow from there.

How do you guys do it?

Definitely. So, um, what that would look like start to finish is usually people will reach out to us, um, typically through the website or um, through email. That's usually sometimes Instagram or phone calls, but. I would say the majority comes electronically. Um, so we would direct them to, just, before we even start any meetings or anything, we would have them fill out a design questionnaire, which gets all of their basic information, essentially down on paper, their name, their address, what they're looking for, size of the project, budget, um, you know, style preferences, just to sort of get those juices flowing for them.

And sometimes people. You know, really have to think about some of the questions, and it helps that initial meeting and the initial consultation that we have with them, because it gives them a little bit of a more specific idea of how we can help and we get all of the specifics from them to find out. If this is feasible or what questions we really wanna dive into more in a meeting.

Um, so after we get their responses in the design questionnaire, we would reach out, schedule a time to have, we typically do Zoom consults just to start, um, just to give each other a chance to go over the questionnaire. We'll share how we work, what options we have, and different services and different levels of service.

Um, so we share about us and then we let them sort of tell. All about their project, how they think that they need a designer, what they may need help with. Sometimes it's, I have no idea what I need help with. I just know I need help. Or sometimes it's a very specific, , project that they have in mind.

So we essentially, we'll get an idea for scope of. Project and, and whether it would be a good fit or not. at that point we would schedule an in-home consult or onsite or if it's a restaurant, we would go onsite and do a full walkthrough and that's when we really get a full scope of project down.

At that point we would. Go through that, timeline, the budget and all of the more specifics. At that point, we would sign our contract and then depending on the level of service, it would kind of diverge after that.

Great. Very, very detailed. I love that you were able to just tell me that right off the bat, because that tells me that you guys do this from a systematic approach day in and day

out, and that leads to successful projects and happy clients all the way around. So kudos to you guys for. for. having that down.

Susan, are there, is there ever a time when you've had to say no to a client because it was not going to be the right client for your firm and for your company for whatever reasons? And if so, how have you done that and how, what was that reaction? Because I know relationships are crucial to your company, as you've said, but how, how have you said no?

And, and what was the purpose for saying no in, in the past?

Yeah, we, we've had to do that a couple of times. We've only actually, um, ever had to part ways in the middle of a project with a client, um, twice. and then the other part of it is to decide whether or not to take on a client are not take on a client. So the two clients that we decided, um. We needed to kind of part ways.

One, it was just, we felt as if, the, the project had nowhere else to go, you know, like we just, we were all floundering and, and we sort of decided mutually like, you know, maybe it's time to take a break

and to kind of have everyone have a time to. Decide what you really wanna do. And I think it was this particular client just got so deep into a renovation that they were kind of in over their heads and just kind of wanted time to stop and breathe. And we left that in a, in a really, really good space. The other client was one that was. Pretty new and recent, and it was this beautiful house and this wonderful location, what you would think is a dream job, you know? Um, and the people seemed very nice at the beginning and we, we had a good rapport. And then the more that we got into it with them, everything was. This long process, getting a decision, you know, you'd ask a question and the decision would be a four page email response and we were getting nowhere fast. So we, we kind of had a convers, a couple of conversations and finally had to say, okay, you know what? We need a decision on this, this furniture for this room.

And maybe now isn't a good time for you 'cause you're so busy with all of these other things. What if we hit pause and then revisit this in three months? And that was sort of how we made that little break. And um, as it turned out in that particular client, they did finish the part of what we had started.

So that was good. And then sometimes, you know, you just get a vibe from someone right at the very beginning. And that's the only way I can describe it. And for someone new to this business. Listen to your instincts because if you get that vibe, go with it. You know, if, if something just says, Nope, nope, nope, nope, you know, as, as great as the project might be, just go for those vibes.

And we've had that feeling a couple of times with clients and we would say either we're too busy, we really can't take it right now. Maybe, you know, we have to take it at a different time. Um. As Jillian said, we also have different, um, levels of business and sometimes we have people that try to do the lowest level of business, but what they want is the bigger one.

We have what's called a design start, which is the smallest project that that we have. And basically it's a three hour in-home. You set the agenda and you've got us for three hours and you know, whatever you need. Well, we got like a. Three page spreadsheet of what they were expecting for that three hours and just said, Nope, this is not really what we, you know, you're looking for our full design project, which they really didn't want to do.

So I mean, sometimes that happens as well. But for every, just go with your gut, even if it's mid-project, and you know, I'm sure you know you've. You've been in business a long time. I'm, I'm sure you've had the same thing happen where all of a sudden things are just starting to go down and you don't wanna crash, like, you know, plateau and go back up again.

If something just doesn't feel right, go with, go with your gut.

Yeah. What is it? Brene Brown says, clear is kind, I think, and I think just by being as clear as possible to people and transparent and saying, you know what, this. You're not a fit for,

as you were saying, for this package that we have, but oh my gosh, I have this other package that would be great for you. Is it gonna cost more?

Yeah, it's gonna cost more, but you're getting more, you're getting more of Susan and you're getting more of Jillian. You

want that one? Okay, great. That comes with a higher price tag and it comes with lots more bells and whistles. Right? Lots more, lots of, lots more of us in inside of that. But you know, I just, I, I just feel like people. Had this perception of what we do as designers and it's sometimes up to us to educate them. Like for instance, Jillian, I saw on your website that you guys offer e-sign services as well, or

virtual design services packages. Is that something that you are seeing as an uptick any in, in the industry recently?

Or is that something that you're seeing slowing down? How is that working for you guys?

You know, we started that around Covid to give people a chance to feel safe and continue with their design projects, especially because, you know, as a lot of businesses. Sort of slowed down or even came to a halt. Ours started growing, but we wanted people to feel safe if they didn't want us coming in their home, or you know, if they're having to, you know, redo a room and make it multifunctional.

Perhaps their guest bedroom that they always had as a guest bedroom now needs to turn into an office. Or, you know, we wanted to be able to help. But, um, that never really took off. We had a few, um, and they went well, but we're probably gonna be phasing that part out of our business. To be honest with you.

It just never really caught on. Um, and I think a big part of it is just that. When people are reaching out to a designer, they're, they want that connection. They want that personal feel, and they want your time. They want your attention. They want you in their home to really learn about how they live and to not just do a quick online consult.

Because let's face it, there are lots of companies that do do that, and they're usually one-offs. They're quick, they're, you know, budget friendly and. For a service like Susan and I provide, that's not really the niche that we're in. so I don't think it was a great fit for our business and I think that we'll be happy to leave that behind when we do phase that out.

Yeah, it sounds like, it sounds like, you guys have found your sweet spot, which I. Which to me, I'm hearing full service design is your sweet spot from start to finish. Susan, do you enjoy doing renovations as part of that, or you prefer doing, you know, the whole package, you know, decor and furnishings and all the things, how, what is, what is your definition of your sweet spot?

What is the happiest spot for you in interior design? If you guys were to package that up with a nice little bow

yeah. That would be starting from the ground up, you

know, when those plans are being started right there with the architect, getting the plans together, working with the contractor, and being there for every step of the way. because so many times there are those things that you wished could have been changed beforehand and you wished you got into the project just a little bit sooner. So I think that, that that's, and that's our top level of design is. Um, from the ground up kind of thing. Renovations is sort of the middle of the road one, and then, uh, the design jump start would be the lowest of the, of the three, from the ground up sort of thing is one of the reasons why we love some of the commercial work that we do. You know, like doing restaurants, you know, you're starting a restaurant from an idea and nothing more, and then it's a complete gut and you are creating an idea. And you're creating a feeling and you're creating a mood and there's nothing that is preexisting. You know, you don't have grandma's sofa that has to stay there. There's, you know, you, you really have a free blank canvas. So I guess that would be my sweet spot.

Yeah, and that's the perfect segue into commercial design for you guys. I was going to ask you more about that. I, I know a lot of firms probably have thought about jumping into commercial or, you know, dabbling in commercial design. How did that evolve for you guys? Was it a conscientious decision or was it something, where was it piggybacking off of another project?

How did you guys actually get into the commercial design aspect and how has that turned out? Sounds like it's turned out well, but, uh, tell me, tell me more about it. 

that started, um, from some of our current clients where we had done their homes and then they, you know, had offices. So that was, we sort of started small that way. You know, one of our clients was a dentist, so we did his three dental offices and then, you know, we had, um, another client that had financial services business.

So we did, you know, that whole big financial services office. Then, um, we actually got a call one day from a restaurant owner. To come in and meet about a function room. And we had done all of these pieces, you know, we've done function rooms before and multi-unit dwellings and lobbies and things like that.

So, um, we thought, you know, we've never done a restaurant, but we've done a function room and everything else like it. So. Um, we went in and, and we sort of got along very well with this restaurant tour. He is had five restaurants. We're doing them all with him, and I think that's it. It's again, that whole relationship building.

You know, once you start a small project with, with him, start doing a function room and from that, you know it's going to be doing a restaurant. And it was actually really intimidating at first. I think Jillian was just sort of starting out. I don't remember where she was, if she was in Florida or San Diego, but the first restaurant that we did, we.

It kind of got brought into this space that was horrible. And, um, as part of the design team with the architect and the contractor, and he said, so what are we gonna do here? And that was the, the one time that I felt like, okay, now's, now's my chance. This is it. You know, you have to say exactly what you think.

So it was like, okay, well this is a terrible location. For us, but it's a wonderful location for you. Like, so we need to block off all these windows because this is just a storefront. We're gonna make this a speakeasy. And it was like, oh wow. What a great idea. And that's what we did. We took a 9,000 square foot spot and we segmented it down and turned it into a speakeasy.

You walk in that door and you have no idea that there's a parking lot right outside that, that door.

 And it turned out amazingly wonderful. Uh, but that's where you just have to jump in and say, okay, this is a blank slate, now's my chance. And we went for it and it worked. And we just finished a second restaurant, on the Plymouth Waterfront overlooking the Mayflower with the same restaurant owner, and we just love it.

That's, it's a whole different type of business.

You literally light up when you talk about, I can see the passion and I can see it's almost like opening up a notebook and it's like a blank page in a notebook, right? You're like, what am I going to do now? And

Uh, seriously, right.

yeah. So Jillian is the, are the processes the same? I'm curious when you

guys move into commercial projects from your residential projects and then vice versa, do

you carry over a lot of the same processes, a lot of the same contractors, a lot of the same vendors?

How does

that work? Or do you have to tweak a lot of things?

tweak a lot of things. They are so, so different. our process is almost entirely different from the beginning because the, you know, from a restaurant perspective, this is not for all commercial, but for restaurants particularly, typically the owner of the restaurateur Just knows that they are the business side of it.

They have no idea what to do inside. They, all they want to do is create this amazing experience, this beautiful place where people are talking about it and they want reviews left on their site that say how gorgeous the inside is and how awesome it was from the moment they walked in to the moment they left.

You know, are they sitting in comfortable chairs? , are they. Looking at beautiful things on the walls. They don't care if it's their style, their colors, none of that matters. They just want people coming in to love it. So I think when Susan was saying that you're creating this, this vibe, this experience, you're not designing.

For that particular client and their taste and their needs, you are designing for all of the people coming to their restaurant. so you get so much more artistic freedom and they just trust you more, I think, as a professional to create this whole versus really think about, you know, in your, in, in your residential projects.

People have to live there and they really are invested in exactly what chair you choose or exactly what sofa it is. And in a restaurant it that doesn't matter as long as it the overall, feeling and the overall space comes to life. They're just looking at that big picture. so you get a lot more freedom.

We love it. We love both, but we just love being able to, as Susan said, have this just blank slate for artistic freedom. We do carry a lot of vendors over. However, we have to be very mindful of, um, you know, the commercial licenses and, and all of the things that they need. Fire ratings and things like that for material.

So, um, some of our vendors are the same and some of them are more commercial based.

I, I especially find that the emotional attachment is less for commercial. Definitely. They're

more concerned primarily about, as you say, the success and the numbers. You know,

I've, I've put books on client shelves before and they're like, I would never read that book. And I'm like, yeah, but the binding is pretty, the binder is so pretty.

Leave it, like, I didn't ask you to read it. It just looks good on the shelf, but. You would never hear that in a restaurant probably, or an office or any space like that from a person who owns the.

Right. It's so true. They just want that wow factor. You know? It doesn't matter if it. Would ever fit in with their style. They just want people to walk in and, and their eyes to bulk out and go, oh my gosh, how beautiful is this?

And then they want to see like, you know, first quarter, uh, revenue come in after the restaurant is 

open. 

Right. so, so Susan, tell me about your relationships with your, tradespeople. I don't know if you supply trades. Some trades persons, like, we supply a limited amount of trades persons, for instance, for our company.

We, we do wallpaper. Uh, we do some woodworkers, but we leave the rest of it to, for us, we leave the rest of it to the general contractor, but I know how important those relationships are. And to me, the longevity, and we talked about trust, you know, internally with, with you and Jillian and, and of course, you know, internally with all of us, with our team, but I know that the trust between tradespeople is so vital to the success of a company and to the success of a project. Because you don't want somebody on your team in any aspect that you don't trust that is not gonna be on your side, that doesn't have your back. But have you, developed a skill, I guess is the best way to say that, to find the right tradesperson, and have you, honed that and, and do you have a list of tradespeople that you've worked with that you value over the years?

I'm sure you have by now. And, and if so, how has that developed?

Yeah, I think it's a, it's almost a two-pronged answer. Um, one is, different subs that you need for a job. Things like the wall, you know, wallpaper, installers and painters and electricians and things like that. And we have a whole list. And those are our preferred vendors. The contract is with the client and the vendor and the, um, the contractor. Not between us. So we don't hire them and then give, give it to them, we refer and then we manage them. So they pay a management fee to us to work with them. Um, and those are people that we've worked with that we trust, all the, that sort of thing. And again, those are relationships that are built over the years.

You know, it's, it's for sometimes you have to understand where your. Your design knowledge ends and their craftsmanship begins. And I think when you respect what they're doing, then you're gonna make a lot of friends in this business. Um, with all of these different types of people delivering this different types of service contractors, sometimes we don't always have an option on. Sometimes, you know, especially for a commercial project, they may have already hired a contractor

that you don't have any say on. So you're going in and you're. Trying your best to work with someone new for a big project, and that's difficult. So I think that it, we, we always do our best to come in and make sure that everyone, that the very first thing we do when we go on site is to make sure that everyone knows that we are all on the same level here. especially commercial projects. They're used to a lot of big name designers going in and they come in and they are just ruling. The whole project and we just try to kind of go in with our dozen donuts and cup of coffee, you know, blocks of coffee and say, Hey guys, come on. You know, let's, we're all in this together. Um, whatever it takes to kind of make everyone feel like they're part of the process, you know? Um, that happens sometimes when you're doing custom furniture, you know, like we'll do custom furniture for, um, a big project and the artisan that you're working with, not giving them so much direction that the reason you hired them. Is no longer appropriate. You know, you hired them for a reason, so give them the opportunity to make what they're gonna make. Uh, we had a 14 foot long table that we needed for this restaurant, for a private dining room, and we knew what we wanted and we knew who we wanted to do it because we saw their work. And it was this wonderful co company. And if I can give a shout out to Bucktown, built in Chicago, they make the most amazing tables. And, um, you know, we worked with them and let him kind of determine from the wood what's the best way to, to have this table form. And it was a completely collaborative effort and we left that. Project feeling so good and they felt so good, we could not wait to work on the next project together. And that's how you want it to work all the time with everyone where you are. Really making sure that you understand what they're bringing to the table and what they're bringing to the table is just as valuable as what you're bringing to the table.

Wow. I love, love, love everything that you just said because I think that you. Remove ego from any project and only look towards the successful project outcome, then nothing gets in the way of the project throughout the entire process. and Jillian, maybe you've seen this before too, but when you also give that trust in front of a client, when a client sees you. Giving that trust to a trades person, or as you said to an artisan or craftsperson, they trust you more, that you brought someone on, that you brought your, a team, that you brought the best person onto the job, and they see that you trust someone enough to say, Hey, what would you do in this situation?

And that the ego has been removed. And I would think that it would further, develop that relationship and further, strengthen that bond that you have with your client as well.

Definitely. and I think just as you said, removing the ego from it, that was the perfect way to put it. Because we see all the time designers coming into projects and just. Thinking or acting like they know the perfect way to do everything on the project. And that's just not, that's just not true.

That's not the case. And I think that, you know, if ever there is any part of the project, and there are many parts where we might not be the best. Person to ask the question for about that thing. We're not afraid to admit that, you know, and, and we're not afraid to admit that in front of our clients either.

As Susan mentioned for this table, this one particular vendor, he knows every type of wood that he has in the shop. He can make. The most beautiful recommendations of things that we would never come up with. Um, and so just releasing a little bit of that control and just trust in your vendors, it makes everybody feel good and it comes out with such a better product.

And to say, I might not know the best way to do that, but I'll find out and I can talk to the person who does know. So, you know, sometimes that's all you have to do. And. We're all human. Nobody knows the best way to do everything, so just admit it and you know, get that answer, find that right person and work together.

Ah, my gosh. You're, you, you both are just like in my head because I, I am the same way. If I don't know the answer I literally tell my team and my client and, and everybody.

I don't know that answer. but I will find out and I will get back to you tomorrow and I will have the best answer you've ever heard.

But I don't, I'm not gonna give you a, a lie. I'm not gonna make up an answer right now because I want to give you facts and I hear that's what I'm hearing from you

guys, is 

that this, this whole clarity and transparency and honesty thing is. It's just ebbing and flowing throughout your whole business.

It gives me goosebumps. I love it so much because so many people don't do that. They would just rather put up this facade of I'm a designer, I know everything and I'm immortal and I don't have to have flaws or issues or I don't have things that I don't understand.

And it's like, no, there are things we don't understand because there are other people who are much better at certain things than you know, than we are. Right. That's why we bring these people on to join our team.

is so true, and when you're transparent and able to talk about those things and questions as they come up, whenever, problems in the field arise and your client's there for them, we always hope that they're not of course, but if they are. It just adds to that trust because they've seen you problem solve before and they know you can do it again.

So you don't have that panicked moment where your clients go, oh gosh, what happened? You know, they, there's already that level of trust where we know that if we don't know that answer right now, we will get it fixed. So I think it just really adds into that relationship.

and then of course, one fib or one lie, one little white lie leads to another one and you're like, oh, wait, what did I say there? Oh my gosh, I've gotta cover that up 

and say this, and and, well, and, and why, why would we even want to go down that road to, to even do that? I don't, I never, I've never understood why, the general public, number one, I've never understood why the general public.

Thinks that we're experts on everything that we do. Every aspect of it. Yeah, we're, we're really good. We're really, really good, don't get me wrong, but we don't know everything. And number two, I don't understand why designers have fallen into that trap as well to say, oh, I'm going to play up this whole fakeness of I have to know everything and I have to do everything.

It's just not. It's not a viable business option, and it's not a viable life option, frankly. No one, no one can keep that going. It's not sustainable whatsoever. So I, I, I think that's, that's so wonderful that you both are just so clear on how you operate your company and, and the honesty. With that, Susan, back to the clients and the, and we talked about the onboarding process, but how do you find your clients? Where do they come from? Is it word of mouth? Do you do advertising? I like to get into the meat of everything a bit. So tell me about how you sort of market your company and what you like to do to bring in new clients and just awareness of your company and of your brand in general.

Yeah, I think that it's kind of multi-pronged. Um, a lot of our business is repeat business. A lot of our business is referral. A very, very big part of our business is referral. Probably 75% of our business is from another client, another happy client, or someone who saw a project that we did. Um, and then. You know, we, Jill and I say all the time is that you never know who you're talking to or who you're meeting and what you're saying if they could be a potential client. And I feel like from that point, it's like you're always marketing. You don't necessarily have to be putting the ad in the trade journals and doing all of that because you are your best representation and everyone you talk to and every place you go, um, you are, you are the best.

Best face forward. You know, our biggest client that we have ever had, we got from a local Facebook page where this client at and was new to town and asked who's the go-to person? And that was the name that came just from people who know us. And we, we got the job hands down. That was just, it wasn't even, I don't even know if, if he ended up. Interviewing other people. It was just because that's what the local town said. You were the designers to hire. So, and, and some of the people that responded on that Facebook page, I don't even know, but they may be someone that I know who knows someone else, or we did another house. So that's how all of our business

They knew you. 

They know us. You know, I mean, and obviously, you know, when you have, um, things that become published and people see you in local newspapers, magazines, or whatever, then they get to know you again. Um, so it's, it's just your name just keeps being fresh in their minds so that when they are ready, it's like, wait a minute.

You know, what about that designer that I just heard about? Or so and so recommended this person? And then that's how the name comes to be.

Yeah. and one thing that struck me even when I went to your, your website, was that. A lot of people on, on their websites tend to hide behind, project images and their portfolio and all the things, and that you don't even, you can't even find out. It's a big pet peeve of mine.

You can't even find out who the owner of the company is and much less what their interests are. But what I loved, Jillian was that on, on the website, you guys had this nice. Biography about yourself. And I felt after reading it, even though you guys gave me a biography before we did the podcast, of course, but on the website too, I felt like just the general public can go there and you know, know a bit more about you and Susan both, but is that also kind of part of your marketing as well, to let people in on who you are as just human beings?

I think that is a big part. you know, as Susan mentioned, we don't do a ton of advertising and marketing. We, we tried dabbling in it a little bit and found no change whatsoever. As Susan mentioned, really just word of mouth. And I think that in this day and age we're all so bombarded by. Emails and websites and advertisements and you know, all the popups and, and just this wealth of knowledge that we have all the time on social media and on the internet that just hearing someone.

You know, a word of mouth recommendation from someone you know, or trust or someone who's familiar. It kind of just tunes all the rest of that noise out. And I think people value that more than having to go and search through all the other designers in the area who surely all do beautiful work too.

Um, but I think that's just what sets you apart is that human connection.

definitely the relatability is important for people. I feel as well to know that they can trust the person that referred them, and if they

trust the person who referred you, then they're going to trust you because you were a referral from them. I call it autopilot selling, and it's not even selling again, it's just where you're. Always the best representation of your company that you can be, right? And it is just on autopilot. It's not

even like you're forcing it, you both are just who you are. You are your company. This is who I am, this is what I represent, this, these are the type of projects that we do. This is how we run our processes. That is effortless selling, which is serving the general public. And when you do that. Is almost like its own form of marketing, if you will, and it almost happens naturally. Don't you agree, Susan?

Completely, completely. You know, you mentioned going to the website. We have a problem with a website because sometimes it's two, three years before you finish a project. And then if you wanna have that, those pictures go to publication, you could have another six months to a year. I. Before you can put those pictures on your website.

So we always feel like our website, like we have like four projects right now that we can't put on our website, you know, so there's always that lag. So you have to give something else in your website to try to make people get to know you, like you said. And we're in the process of actually redoing that again.

We did it probably five years ago and we're. Right in, in the middle of just about ready to, to kinda shut it down and, and do a refresh for this, for that very same reason. But there's no magic formula. You know, you're your best salesperson is, is just you. and just do whatever you can, making sure that every time you leave a job, you leave everyone with a good impression of you.

and I was going to ask, Jill, what you guys consider your secret sauce. I think I already know the answer after this interview, but what you feel is the secret sauce of your, of your firm.

I think that there are, especially in the design world, there are so many amazing designers that will give you what you want in a beautiful way. I think. Our secret sauce is what you're trying to sell to people is the experience of not only getting that, but getting that with you because sure, the end product will be beautiful whether you go with us or whether you go with another talented designer, but.

It's gonna be a long process and are you going to enjoy that process? And what's that going to be like for you? So that's why we really stress the relationship, the communication, because it's not, typically, they're not short projects, you know? And do you wanna always have this tension and this, you know, um, uncomfortable or, or.

Maybe not always honest relationship or do you wanna be able to pick up your phone and call or text one of us and just say, Hey, quick question on this. How do you feel about it? You know, and get an answer. Or what do you want that process to feel like? And if you want it to feel comfortable and familial, then you know, that's what we, we want as well.

We, we all wanna have a good time doing the project and have a beautiful result, but it's more about the relationship for us.

Well, where do I sign? I'm gonna send me a contract. I'll sign it tomorrow. I'm, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go. No, you guys are, I, I, I, I love, uh, it is all the warm and fuzzies and I, and I, and I feel it emoting from everything that you say. And I can tell that you, again, not only love what you do, but you love your clients and you love taking care of your clients, which is so. So wonderful, but tell me how everybody can find you guys and find out more about you and where do you hang out and can, where can they send you messages and all that good stuff. I.

Sure. So, um, we're on Instagram. Our handle is at S-U-H-A-Y Interiors. So at Suha Interiors, our website is www.susanhaywardinteriors.com. Um, and we are local to Boston. I love to hang out at my kids' preschool, but, um, you'll, you'll find us on social, um, on the website and just popping around town.

I love it. You guys are so wonderful. I love the dynamic. Susan Jillian, thank you both for being here today and for. Sharing your insights and sharing your knowledge. And I, and I know you are an inspiration to not only those who are starting out, but even those who are veterans in the industry. I know there's so many nuggets that people can take away from this today and apply to their own business, which is again, the whole goal of this podcast. And I've already taken lots of mental notes myself, so maybe I'm gonna tweak a few things in my own processes. Thanks guys. So I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing all of this wealth of knowledge today with my audience. Thank you both so much.

Thank you so much. This has been so nice to be part of.

Yeah. Thank you so much, John. This was such a blast. 

And there you have it. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. Aren't they wonderful? Just two honest, talented, straightforward designers. And I love the family dynamic. I love that they value transparency. And if you've listened to my podcast or met me at all, you know that transparency and clarity is vital to my business.

And I can tell. With Susan and Jillian it is to their business as well. So very very great job ladies on Establishing who you are in your company and putting that message out there into the world I applaud you for that and I applaud you for listening to another episode of the designer within I know you found a lot of great things inside of this episode and if you are considering Bringing on a business partner or someone to work with you and your company.

Maybe now you can look at to a relative where you maybe have been a little squeamish before. So thanks to Susan and Jillian. We all feel a little bit better about that. so I just want to thank you again for listening to another episode of the designer within, and I will see you next week.

Keep on designing a great business and a great life, my friend. I'll see you soon.

Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the designer within podcast. It means the world to me. If you're ready to dive deeper into the topics that we've discussed here, be sure to check out my online coaching and courses program, design success academy. com here. I will teach you everything you need to know to run your interior design business.

From starting the project all the way to the end, including marketing and pricing your services for profit. And for more information on this podcast, including how to be a guest or my design services in general, go to johnmcclain. co. That's johnmcclain. co. See you soon, friend