Creating Harmonious Homes: Ethical and Vegan Interior Design with Deborah Dimare

Imagine transforming your home into a sanctuary that not only soothes your soul but also stands as a testament to ethical living. Join me, John McClain, and pioneer Deborah Dimare as we navigate the intersection of interior design and moral responsibility, ensuring that every piece of furniture and fabric honors both your well-being and the planet's. Our lively discussion explores my journey to creating healthful living spaces, and Deborah's transition from traditional design to championing animal rights and sustainability within the industry.

This episode isn't just about aesthetics; it's a deep dive into the heart of vegan and cruelty-free design practices. Delve into the world of non-toxic materials with us as we inspect the challenges designers face in sourcing ethical products, such as the elusive featherless sofa, and how bedroom environments can be revitalized with GOTS-certified organic materials. We share practical tips for those yearning to create a nurturing home environment—one that is family-friendly, durable, and free of harmful toxins.

Whether you're a seasoned professional or a curious novice, there's a wealth of knowledge to be gained as we craft spaces that not only look good but do good, fostering healthier communities one room at a time.

Learn more about Deborah:
www.dimaredesign.com Use Code: The Designer Within to save 40% off of her kids and babies room design course: https://dimaredesign.com/online-babies-and-kids-room-design-course/

Deborah Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deborahdimare/
Deborah's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/987654061723239
Deborah's Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/HealthyHumaneDesign,

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

How do we know if we really are getting something that aligns with beliefs under this umbrella of cruelty-free design and non-toxic design, and so forth? What are we looking for? What components are important, what components aren't important, and so forth?

Speaker 2: 0:13

I think it's baby steps, because then you can just overwhelm yourselves and do nothing. But if you're going to start anywhere, I think starting with the bedroom is easy. And to me, the bedroom is probably the most important space in a home, because we spend nearly a third of our life there and it's when our body is healing itself. When we sleep, our body is healing ourselves. We're cleansing. We're cleansing out all our toxins. So what we surround ourselves with in our bedroom, to me, is so important.

Speaker 1: 0:36

Hey y'all, you're listening to the Designer Within Podcast, episode number 46. I'm John McClain and welcome to the Designer Within podcast, the business-minded podcast created for creative entrepreneurs by a creative entrepreneur that's me. I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that can come with our careers, and I'm here to sip and spill the tea with you. It's time to dive deep within yourself and redesign your own business and your life from the inside out. Together, we will uncover secrets and share valuable insights. So prepare for a transformative experience, my friends, because it's time to unleash the designer within. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of the designer within. I'm John McClain and I'm very, very happy to have you here If you're listening to this in real time.

Speaker 1: 1:28

It is May of 2024, and I have a lot of things going on this month, and especially a lot of things going on this week, oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1: 1:39

So, for those of you who know me or who follow me or have just heard what's going on, I relocated to Las Vegas from Los Angeles and that move was going to be a full-time move, and I still kept my LA clients and still kept my business functioning in LA.

Speaker 1: 1:59

And then I found myself in LA a lot more than I had anticipated physically a lot more. So I was back in Los Angeles probably at least once a month, working with clients and working on projects and just doing business things in LA. So, long story short, we kept our home in LA my husband and I did and we just came to the decision that our lives are fully in Los Angeles and decided to move back to Los Angeles, and so that is what has happened. So if you're wondering why there is a missed week in the podcast episodes of last week, that is the reason why we were in the midst of moving physically moving from Las Vegas back to Los Angeles, but we moved back into our house. I love this house and it is the house that I actually redesigned prior to moving, and you can go on to my website or my Instagram page and see the house. It was a true labor of love.

Speaker 1: 2:54

I called it the Modern Loft Bungalow and it was one of those projects that you know we bought this house during the pandemic and, of course, being a designer, you guys know how it is. I decided to renovate it completely, so we bought a brand new house and then gutted it completely, but we decided to move back into the house and back to Los Angeles full time. So here we are. Thanks for your patience and missing an episode last week. I am back in full force and so happy to be here with you and head over to my Instagram page if you want to kind of keep up with all of the shenanigans there.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Also. I just wanted to mention if you are enjoying the podcast and finding some great benefits from it. Please share the podcast with a friend. Please share it with a colleague. I love to get the good word out about helping other people in the industry. It is just a great way to share the information inside of the podcast, which is the whole entire reason that I created this podcast was to share information, as you all know. So please share the podcast and, if you feel so inclined, I would love it if you could leave me a review on whatever platform you listen to the podcast on. All right, that is the homework out of the way and I have a great new episode for you today.

Speaker 1: 4:05

On today's episode, I have Debra Dimar. Debra is an interior design consultant, author, educator and pioneer of the ethical wellness design movement. She specializes in furniture and decor that is non-toxic, vegan and designed for optimal mental and physical wellness. Chemicals and animal-based furniture and decor can trigger physical and mental illness, she says. Deborah feels that our environment has a direct effect on our health. Deborah was a design consultant on TLC's In a Fix and she has been featured in AD, hollywood Reporter, forbes, better Homes and Garden and Dwell, just to name a few. She has also appeared on the Today Show and has authored a book on healthy and humane design. So this is a great episode if you are interested in the vegan and non-toxic, cruelty-free design movement, and Debra really is passionate about it. She is a pioneer in this industry and we are going to dive into her philosophy behind that, what she offers as her teaching mechanisms for you and for consumers as well. So sit back, relax and enjoy this very informative episode with Debra Dimar Debra, I want to welcome you to the Designer Within Podcast.

Speaker 2: 5:19

Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 5:20

It is a delight to have you here. I was just chatting with you and we haven't actually had this discussion on the podcast before, which is why I wanted to bring you on. This is so relevant. It's a timely discussion anyway, but especially these days when I feel so many more people designers and consumers in the world are becoming more cognizant of non-toxic design and vegan design and cruelty-free design and all of those things. So we're going to dive deep into that, why it's so important to you, all of those things. But before we do that, they heard my official quote, unquote bio of you before we started. But can you tell everyone in your own words a little bit about your past and how you became a designer and then how you sort of morphed into this movement that you're in?

Speaker 2: 6:05

So I have been designing now, oh gosh, over 22 years or so and I have had no formal training. Everything was organic. I am the mother of twins and I was a full-time mom until my children went into kindergarten and first grade actually. And then I said, okay, I'm ready to start working and I was looking for something part-time, because having twins is, you know, a lot, and I decorated a friend's home as a favor and that is how my business started. Quite honestly, her neighbor called me, then her cousin called, and then the cousin's cousin called and I was telling everyone hey, listen, I've never been to school, I don't have any formal training, and no one really seemed to care and it was interesting because I screwed up a lot. But I also learned how to surround myself with people that were much smarter than me and had the technical background which I lacked. I had the creativity, I assume, but I lacked the technical background. So my business, I was really just thrown into it and a couple of years later I became a designer on TLC.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Later I became a designer on TLC, which really catapulted my company and my career, and so it's been a really interesting path that I've had, and my family and I just love animals. I mean, our entire life really revolves around our pets, literally. And here I was designing spaces that, if I think back, every room contained something that was derived from the tragedy of an animal or, as I now know, a laborer, a worker, and the planet and the oris and everything you know wool, rugs, feather down leather, cowhide, everything, shark skin, angora and I've been involved with animal rights organizations for many years PETA, farm Sanctuary, mercy for Animals, woodstock Sanctuary, catskill Sanctuary, so many of them because I'm such a believer in helping to save animals and bring awareness to their horrible treatment. So here I was, on one end, you know, doing all this work for these animal rights organizations and on the other, buying leather. And I always say you have to be ready for change, john, because I've had endless videos pass through my feed and clearly I did not want to open them at the time because I wasn't ready. So I was just living in my little Hippocratic world, you know, with my head under the sand. But one day I opened a video from PETA on dog leather, and that was the day that was about 10 years ago that after viewing that video, I said I'm done, I'm really done.

Speaker 2: 8:27

And China's the leading exporter of leather and anything can be considered a skin there, because they eat dog, like we cow here. They eat dog, so dogs are skins. You could have a leather sofa that could be dog skin. It's a true reality. It could be kangaroo skin. I mean, I think Nike got busted with that one when they called it K-leather and they found out it was kangaroo skin.

Speaker 2: 8:48

For me, that was the turning point and what was really interesting, what happened after that? Because I said we are no longer using anything derived from animals, so we got rid of wool, we got rid of leather, we got rid of fur down. I mean, we think about it, all the things that are in our furniture. So it was a learning curve for me, a tremendous learning curve, because a lot of the vendors had never been asked these questions before. When we would order a sofa, they would say, well, we're using vegan leather or we're using a got certified linen or something, and I would say, yeah, but what's under the sofa? Oh well, we don't know. That's all I need to know. Is there down? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 9:24

This was you're talking 10 years ago and I had to learn a lot and what happened was about a year after, I get an email from a designer in Australia and she's asking me all about vegan design, and I wrote back to her. I said how did you even know that I'm doing vegan design? And she said well, you're number one on Google for vegan design. I said I am Because I was so busy trying to just write articles and, have you know, just starting to build awareness to people. I wanted people to know what I was understanding and learning every day, and so I really became a pioneer which I laugh at, you know, but I was the pioneer in vegan design and we then developed a course for designers and consumers on vegan design and it's been taken in almost every country, which to me, is also incredible.

Speaker 2: 10:12

We had people from Saudi Arabia taking the course, places that I wouldn't imagine would be of interest and so we started the course because so many designers were contacting me and my assistant was like Debra, we need to just make a course, we don't have time to respond like this anymore. And that just kind of led to everything, and it was really huge rabbit hole, because I quickly discovered that it wasn't just about animals, it was about child laborers, it was about workers. The average tannery worker in India dies at 55 years old. It was about the streams and the forests and the wildlife, and the planet and the ecosystem, and it's just this whole. I just entered this huge rabbit hole and to this day, john, I'm still learning. There was not a day that goes by that I don't learn something. Wow, I'm like wow, I really didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Yeah, I think all of us are always learning, and what I'm hearing from you is two things. First, you said you didn't have a quote formal education with design but you jumped in headfirst and you made learning a priority and you've surrounded yourself with intelligent people. When I agree with all of that.

Speaker 1: 11:12

But also, when you had this realization that you wanted to be this pioneer in the vegan and non-toxic design movement, you decided like, okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to learn everything that I can about that, which sometimes, when there's not someone like you, deborah, to give us that information, it's not sitting on a silver tray, right. So I'm sure you had to do some digging. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, what was? What was that process like?

Speaker 2: 11:37

It was. It was harrowing and it was sad, because I then wrote a book called Vegan Interiors and the research for that book. Because I then wrote a book called Vegan Interiors and the research for that book, we would have to call places, for example in Texas, that sell snake skins and crocodile skins, pretending that we wanted to order them. I was practically crying on the phone because they would say well, you know, if you want one with less scars on it, it's this price, and if you want one with, you know, no scars on it. So it was very hard emotionally for me, but I just kept saying it's all about bringing awareness. I think if people know eight, it takes eight cows to make a sofa, typical sofa, eight cows. And people say, well, they use the meat. No, no, no, that's a completely different industry, completely different industry. So don't convince yourself and feel less guilty because you think that they're using it. For me, which is also the cattle industry, we can't even go into that because that's a whole nother subject and that is also despicable. But over 150 billion animals are killed yearly for their skins. So eight cows to make one couch Feather down. I mean just learning about what goes on in these industries for animals. And again, it's not only about the animals, john, we got a hold of an animal handler sheet for crocodiles. What they have to sign off on Drug addiction, cancers, respiratory issues because of all the toxins and chemicals that they use and also for the emotional distress that they undergo having to slaughter these animals Wool, you know, I see responsible wool now I swear I want to like wring the neck of every store that carries that tag. There is no such thing as responsible wool. It's complete crap.

Speaker 2: 13:09

It was a great marketing move by Patagonia because they got busted for something called mulesing, which is an awful tactic they use on sheep and that's what sheep are. What they're doing now is they're breeding sheep merino wool. They're breeding them to have so much wool on them that they can barely stand and because there's so much wool they get maggots. So what they discovered was and you know, every sheep is not an animal, it's just a number, it's money. So what they've discovered is if they remove the skin by their hind area, it scars over and that's where the maggots can't go. But they were doing that with crude knives on sheep and they do it like in a merry-go-round boom, boom, boom, boom. You know in places that there's no regulations on anything. So they got busted with videos of that. They got busted with downers where they took the sheep and they broken-knife, they throw them into a pile and they're still alive, and all these terrible things.

Speaker 2: 14:00

So they came up with responsible wool, which is lud same thing with responsible leather. Now you see, which doesn't even make sense, because how could it be responsible? So if it's a skin from a dead animal, I had to really try to separate my emotions from it and say I want to. For me, I really believe that most people, if they cared about animals, if they cared about themselves and their families, they would reconsider their choices, because all these skins and animal products are loaded with chemicals, loaded and they don't just disappear when they come into your house. So if we want to appeal to a person who's just about thinking about themselves and let's say they don't care about animals, well, at least think about yourself and your family. What are you doing when you're bringing in a downed pillow? It's loaded with pesticides, allergens.

Speaker 1: 15:50

Do you feel like the industry? You mentioned sort of this marketing side of things and I find that very fascinating. It's almost like when you pick up a box of cereal and it's low fat Well, low fat compared to a lot right and I tend to get that it's what you're going after here.

Speaker 1: 16:04

And we see sustainability is becoming more prevalent, et cetera, et cetera. But what does one do to dig deeper? When they're seeing these labels and you get, you know, maybe someone doesn't know and I want to talk more about how we do know. But how do we find out more from this vendor? So, say, a vendor says oh yes, we are cruelty free, we are an advocate for this and we support this. And they come up with some term, some generic term that sounds light and fluffy and fabulous and wonderful, and we're like, oh, my gosh, I feel so great when you dig a little deeper, you're like, oh, that's actually means nothing really, when you go below the surface. So is it just about asking the vendor? Is it just about do you need to come to them with statistics and go to them and say what do you do?

Speaker 2: 16:44

I'll give you a good example Pottery barn it's very hard for retailers to find completely vegan sofas Now you're finding them more and more but also ones that are very comfortable. It's difficult because it's missing the feather. So Pottery Barn came up with a great sofa. I love it. I think it's called the Cloud Sofa and it's so cushy and soft and it's completely vegan. So I went to the store here in Miami and they were telling me how it's vegan this and that, and I was like this is awesome. So then when I was in New York with a client, I'm like I want to show a client this sofa. I go in the store and I'm like where's your vegan sofa? She's like we don't have all our sofas contained down. I'm like, well, what about this sofa here? And I showed it to her. And this woman I got lucky with this salesperson. She said give me a minute. She was gone 30 minutes. I thought she completely forgot about us. She came back and she said you know what? This sofa does not contain feather. We had no idea. So we got lucky with that salesperson.

Speaker 2: 17:37

But if you get the average salesperson who's in cranky mood, it's the end of the day. They're not going to do the research. So ask the salesperson, but then you have to triple check. Get on Google, email us. We get questions every day. We'll check it out for you. We'll do the best we can Get on Google and research. You have to research. Education is power. It's such a great tool to have under your belt when you go in armed and ready to say where is this, what is this made? Tell me the film. How do you know? Is it just the top coat or is it under? You just have to ask questions, and the only way you're going to know more questions to ask is by educating yourself, or else you're just asking random, stupid questions.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Are there organizations that maybe you said you have a list and you have ideas.

Speaker 2: 18:21

What's interesting is that I think we're the only ones that work with all retailers, because we always get the question where can we go to buy things that are not animal-based? There's no one retailer, unless you're doing all custom with us, which is 10 times the price, so there's no specific retailer. We use a plethora of retailers that we know. We have certain items we like and we're always keeping our eye open. So just getting on Google and again you can email us because we want to help. We feel that if we teach one person something, then they tell another person. Then before you know it, you know it takes a village.

Speaker 1: 18:56

Yeah, those grassroots efforts, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 18:58

Because there's really no one place. I mean, with makeup and things like that, it's completely different. You can find things that are cruelty free, but as far as furniture, there's a Sustainable Furnishings Council, which is complete bogus as well, and I tried to have long conversations with the founder because one of their supporters is Patagonia. So I said to her isn't that a bit of a conflict? You're talking about sustainable furnishings, but you have Patagonia on your board and you're as a sponsor, so you really have to think about where the information is coming from, which we all know. I mean, you can have a 10-year-old writing a report on Google and you have to look at the source. You must look at the source of things.

Speaker 1: 19:36

Definitely. I love the examples that you've given so far about cruelty-free design and just, basically, things that are non-toxic and all that. But what are some, I guess, key principles that we would look for? Because for me, you're mentioning leather and you're mentioning some of the bigger picture things. But let's take a sofa as a, for instance. So you have, yes, the vegan leather, but then you also have the wood Was it sustainably grown? And then you have all the components of the filling and all the things right. So do we analyze everything? Debra? Do you recommend analyzing every component of everything that we bring in, or is it something that we just basically do? A blanket understanding of it all? Like, how do we know if we really are getting something that aligns with beliefs under this umbrella of cruelty-free design and non-toxic design and so forth? Like, what are we looking for? When do we stop the search? For instance, like, what components are important, what components aren't important, and so forth?

Speaker 2: 20:33

I think it's baby steps because then you can just overwhelm yourselves and do nothing. You know you could venture that like circle of, like that hurricane and just not accomplish anything. But I think there are certain simple things that I'll tell people. Or when I'm on a podcast I'll say if you're going to start anywhere. I think starting with the bedroom is easy, and to me the bedroom is probably the most important space in the home because we spend nearly a third of our life there and it's when our body is healing itself. When we sleep, our body is healing ourselves. We're cleansing. We're cleansing out all our toxins. So what we surround ourselves with in our bedroom to me is so important Bedding Easy, gots certified Global Organic Text, easy, gots certified Global organic textile standard.

Speaker 2: 21:12

To me, that's the granddaddy of certifications. It's also fair trade. It's wonderful. So look for that certification when you're buying. Is that a label on the actual? It's a tag and it'll say Gots certified G-O-T-S. Perfect, because God Certified will also sell some animal products. So you want an organic cotton, an organic linen. Those are two great materials for your bed. I love organic cotton sheets and I say, if you're going to spend the buck, spend them in your bed. Again, it's a very important space for us, for our body, for our health, for our mental and physical wellness, because it's all connected. It's all connected.

Speaker 1: 21:49

Yeah, the benefits of it are far reaching. I'm sure you know emotional wellness, all the things as you say. This could really you could go down a rabbit hole of you know, wondering where to start and where to stop. When I think of, I mean and a lot of people probably do as well, you know you hear, of course, low VOC paints. Right, there was a big push with low VOC paints and I feel like most paint companies now have that option. I feel like most paint companies now have that option. And can you just talk about that a bit and how maybe has that influenced the industry? Has that made?

Speaker 2: 22:17

a change. You know what? I think the big shift came with COVID, I think, when people were stuck in their homes and they really started to analyze their spaces and one of the easiest things to do was repaint a room. So I think that brought education about paint. And, as I always say, stay away from cheap paint, don't buy paint, don't paint, because if you're only going to paint with a cheap paint, stay away from it.

Speaker 2: 22:40

Volatile organic compounds Awful, and again they don't know. Every year they say they dissipate after 10 years, they dissipate after five years, they dissipate after 15 years and no one even knows. So stick with. I like Benjamin Moore. They have the EcoSpec paint. It's not as expensive as Farrow and Wall, it's not clearly as expensive as slime paints of Europe and that's a great paint. They can do it in any color. So use a paint that definitely has low VOCs.

Speaker 2: 23:04

There's so many neurological and developmental and respiratory issues that are so connected to all of these chemicals and toxins. I mean it's not even just thoughts anymore or ideas, these are facts. I mean autism, spectrum disorders, sensory challenges, developmental delays, infertility, allergies are so on the rise and it's because we spend so much of our time indoors. Now, you know, a hundred years ago people were outside more than they were inside. Now we're inside more than we are outside. So our walls, what's inside, our environment, is so key to our mental and physical health. So the bedroom start with the sheets. Get God-certified organic cotton sheets. Your pillows don't do down. Your face is pressed up against those feathers. Those feathers are loaded with toxins. I've gotten used to using K-Pak, which is the beans.

Speaker 1: 23:54

And I like it.

Speaker 2: 23:55

It makes it kind of a squishy noise, but you get used to it. You can also. There's, there's all there.

Speaker 1: 23:59

I haven't tried that before.

Speaker 2: 24:00

You know, you can just try. There's also, like hypoallergenic fillers, like I prefer, believe it or not, using a petrochemical as opposed to using a feather, which sometimes you have to choose Rugs, do I go? I'm not going to use a wool rug because that is loaded, loaded, loaded, loaded with pesticides. So if I have to do a poly or a nylon, okay, but of course I'd rather have an organic cotton, which would be ideal and it's also healthier, especially for allergies, because you have to think about everything that collects dust.

Speaker 1: 24:27

Yes, and did we start with our children's rooms? We start in the nursery. I mean, obviously you know bedrooms are important, but obviously the space would be to start young right In your in your children's room?

Speaker 2: 24:37

Yeah, I mean the place to start is the nursery. If you have that luxury, start in the nursery. And you know I have the kids online nursery and kids course, which I know we're going to mention, but there's so many things in the course that were so that I really wanted to make sure I communicated properly. And that is that when you look on Instagram and you see a celebrity's nursery, which you know, this that took them a week to stage and there is absolutely nothing practical about that nursery, nothing you can see. The crib is by a window. You know it's just so.

Speaker 2: 25:06

Less is more in a nursery, less is more. Your baby grows, god willing, so quickly. Get a cheap organic cotton rug, put a low VOC paint on the walls, get a crib that's non-toxic and get sheets that are not printed. You have to make sure you know here's little things organic printed sheets. A sheet can be organic and non-toxic, but the print on it can be completely toxic and it's legal to sell that way. So you have to be really careful when you get those cute little sheets that say organic certified with little dinosaurs, because, guess what, the dinosaurs could be completely toxic.

Speaker 1: 25:40

See, this is what I mean. It's multilayered of understanding.

Speaker 2: 25:45

That's why it goes simple Just get plain, go get plain, got certified sheets for the baby, don't worry about the print, easy peasy right.

Speaker 1: 25:53

When you were starting out. By the way, just quick question when you were starting out and you decided to make this transition over into becoming a pioneer in the vegan and non-toxic, were you apprehensive about possibly losing clients, losing business and not making a living doing that? Because when you started doing it it wasn't. There wasn't even a movement, it wasn't even prevalent, it wasn't even a thing. Quote unquote. Were you concerned about that at?

Speaker 2: 26:16

the time. No, which was probably stupid, because I was so emotional about it, because I love animals so much, like so much, and my kids, we all love animals so much that I which was probably the worst business advice to give Be emotional You're never supposed to be emotional in business but it forced me to be very creative. So how do I? What do I mean by that? I can't force, I will never force, a client to go vegan or non-toxic. Remember that movie, the Big Fat Greek Wedding? Did you ever see that movie?

Speaker 2: 26:51

Okay, one of the best scenes is when she's at the diner with her dad and she's convincing him that it's his idea that she should go to college. Do you remember that scene? It was a very funny scene and that's what I do with clients. I will go there and let's say there's a client saying I want a big leather couch in this media room. Like, okay, great, you know what? When I see next I'm going to come back with some samples. I see them next time.

Speaker 2: 27:12

I bring my beautiful, very high-end, expensive, vegan leather samples with real leather and I say I have all these samples and like, oh, my god, they're gorgeous. I'm like I know, I'm so excited to show you. Okay, let's compare. Okay, we're going to put a little like juice on this one and this one's a faux, very high-end luxury. And let's put it on the real leather. Oh no, it's so prepped into the leather. Oh, that sucks. Okay, let's you know what? Let me scratch the real leather. Oh, my God, it's scratched because it's the skin. Let's do the faux leather. Look at this, it doesn't scratch. You know, I don't know about you, but I'm thinking we go with the faux leather. Oh, a hundred percent. So it's like a big factory wedding.

Speaker 2: 27:58

And, of course, nothing that I'm saying is not untrue. It's all true. I'm just bringing awareness and I'm allowing the client to have control, because you never want to force like with my children. I never can. I never want to force feed my. Don't do this because I'm older, and of course I know when they're going to screw up. You know it's it's, it's a dance about letting them feel empowered. And it's the same with clients. Everyone wants to be heard. It's all psychology. Everyone wants to be heard.

Speaker 1: 28:19

So I love that philosophy. I come to you now actually asking for it, now that it's actually becoming more mainstream and more known and you're becoming more known for it. Are people saying, yes, I want to work with Debra because she is? Yes, yes Now.

Speaker 2: 28:33

I get clients all over. How nice is that right?

Speaker 1: 28:37

It has to feel great for you.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Well, it's interesting. Some of them are vegan. Most of them are about the chemicals. For me, when I'm talking on a podcast, if you want to just focus on chemicals, I'll do that, because, guess what? The end game for me is saving animals and workers, and that is how it's worked If you are vegan and we're going to talk about vegan.

Speaker 2: 28:54

Terrific, because it's all connected. It's also look and this is all sensory design. I design spaces for people with neurological issues like autism, and there's no way that you can design a space for someone with autism that has the smell of leather, the smell of wool, the texture of wool. You have to design a space as clean as possible. Someone in the spectrum of autism? Their sensitivities are just much more exacerbated than ours. We have the same sensitivities, but for them it's much more, it's stronger. So this is something that I've kind of always done, but now it's labeled.

Speaker 1: 29:26

Very cool. You mentioned the pandemic earlier, and something popped into my mind Also that happened, I feel, during the pandemic is that people were ready to change their homes and maybe they didn't want to bring a designer in or wanted to do it cheaply. They ended up buying all this basically cheap furniture full of formaldehyde and all toxins and so forth, and then when they start falling apart here, they go to the curb right and so our landfills are full of these things and all of that. So it's just this cycle of people, you know, buying something for the price and then not understanding that quality furniture, quality furnishings last longer, of course, but there's so many more benefits of it, as you say, for your physical health, for your mental health, right, and it does take a certain type of client to do that, to understand that and to really soak that in.

Speaker 1: 30:12

And I always say a client, they don't know what they don't know, right, and it's up to us to educate them, and I love that you're doing that and I love that you're providing a way for other designers to do that as well. Have you gotten any pushback, any resistance from, first of all? Have you gotten any pushback from clients? And, if so, what did you do and have you secondly part of that question have you gotten any pushback from designers or other people in the industry as you are spreading the good work that you have?

Speaker 2: 30:38

From clients? No, I haven't, because especially think about my avatar. I mean we have virtual. Well, I shouldn't say I have many avatars in my client, in my company.

Speaker 2: 30:50

I love doing virtual designs and I do them personally and those are inexpensive because I love, I'm so happy when someone comes to me and wants to help the kind space so I always am able to work out something with them. So that's one thing I do and I do that on the side, I just love doing it. And then I have the ultra luxury client, which is a completely different animal, and many of them that come to me they're very into health and wellness, so they love the whole aspect of low chemicals, of the psychology of a biophilic, clean, harmonious space. Because, you know, I always say it's amazing because I'm helping you design a space that's free from tragedy and despair. The energy which I'm such a believer in, energy is good, clean, beautiful energy and I think that resonates with people, even if they're not really super, super deep. I think that does resonate with a lot of people that there's good energy in this space. There's no bad juju, you know.

Speaker 2: 31:46

So from clients I really haven't gotten that, and from the industry I've not gotten that, if anything, I think it's been interesting for designers, especially new designers, because I always say you must, must, develop a niche. You must, or you will just drown out in the sea of other designers. However, having said that, we must work together. I'm always telling designers there should be no competition. We had a project, my associate had a project in Zurich and he's like I need a team. I said wait a minute, I know that we have people in Zurich that took the course. He connected with someone in Zurich that took the course. So there should be no competition. We all work together.

Speaker 1: 32:24

Oh, you said two things, that is. I love exactly what you just said. You've got to find a niche and you have to make yourself stand out in the sea of designers because, yes, everybody loves interior design, but what makes you special, what makes you unique and you've definitely found your niche 100%. And the other thing is, too is like having this abundance mindset of we all win. We all are raising each other up and helping one another.

Speaker 1: 32:48

I love that, and I'm sure there's a sense of that too. When you're doing what you're doing, right, I'm sure there's this wonderful good feeling, just in general, that not only are you helping your clients but you're helping the world, right? How do you explain that? What good vibes, what good feeling, because I'm all about, you know, as you say, good energy. I am as well, and I love when things are far reaching, when not only does my design philosophy affect this client and that client's family, but then those arms, they start to reach out into other places and maybe that client can start to educate his neighbors and his friends and family about those things, right? Does that have an influence on you as well?

Speaker 2: 33:24

How does that make you feel? It makes me feel so proud. For example, one of the first people that took the course in the very beginning was a woman named Chloe Bullock and she's out in London. Chloe just wrote a book on vegan design. She has formed an organization of other people that have taken the course and in London they have their own group that are promoting vegan design and have taken the course and in London they have their own group that are promoting vegan design. And when she called me, we had a Zoom call and told me about her book and how she's getting all these sponsorships and endorsements. I was so proud that. Look at how this, just from an idea, has spread. So it's really incredible.

Speaker 2: 33:58

And even my associate, santiago, and I we do many projects together for many years. We each have our own companies, but we partner a lot. And he's not vegan in his firm yet, but he knows with me anything we do is vegan. But he said I can't go to a store anymore and now look at a cashmere sweater. I'm like good, because I want you to think of that poor animal. He's like I can't, I just can't do it anymore. So you just I always say you're laying little seeds, the seeds, the seeds. You're spreading those seeds all over and it's it's great to wake up with a passion and not to say that not.

Speaker 2: 34:30

There are days that are very difficult, as we all know anyone in this industry. We all have stories, I'm sure, of monster clients. I've had horrible, unhappy people and they think that. My Santiago says this, which I think is interesting. He said I think what happens with certain clients is we are coming in to decorate their home and they're very unhappy to begin with. They have bad marriages, bad partnerships. They're just unhappy people and they think that by us redecorating their spaces they're going to find happiness. So they get angry at us because in the end they're still unhappy and I'm like that's a really interesting point of view. But sometimes I think he's accurate in some ways.

Speaker 1: 35:08

Yeah, we can't fix everything, even though we try, right, we can't fix it all. That's too funny. Are you seeing any innovations? Or is there anything new that you're seeing right now in this industry? That's exciting? You in the vegan and non-toxic design world that's really getting you excited. Any trends or anything that's like oh, this is really cool, or this is something different, or maybe somebody who's taking something in a different way Anything that's getting you excited right now?

Speaker 2: 35:32

Well, many things and a few of them is that they're coming out with the vegetable-based mycelium fabrics and mycelium mushroom-based fabrics. They're not there yet but they will be. And they're not there yet because they're still not malleable. They're hard, they're coarse and they're loaded with chemicals. Because when you take, for example, the cactus leather right which you might have heard of, it's loaded with chemicals. It's cactus. How do you make it soft? You have to laden that thing with chemicals or else it's still going to be hard cactus.

Speaker 2: 36:01

But I think that that's on the cusp. So I think that's very, very interesting and I just think the whole aspect of I'm being interviewed so much all the time and I feel very, very fortunate. But I think I'm being interviewed because people are now interested and they're calling it different things. I was interviewed about a month ago for a magazine and they wanted to talk about emotional design. They're giving everything good names which people connect with. You know little good soundbites. So emotional design is to me when we're talking about slowly procuring our environment in our home, so it's evolved over time, and making it clean and beautiful and good energy. That to me is slow design. That's also emotional design, that's also vegan design, that's also healthy design. You know it's all connected. So I think the buzzwords have connected with my philosophy of design and I see that and that's very exciting.

Speaker 1: 36:51

Yeah, I was at market I think it was last market or the market before at High Point Market and I saw a cork sofa like a fabric. The fabric was corked right and I thought how interesting, right. But I think the marriage that you have to find is marrying functionality and practicality while still adhering to these vegan and non-toxic principles that we're talking about. Right. So it still has to function well, it still has to be practical. It can't just have all of these other great characteristics and not work for our client.

Speaker 2: 37:20

No, no no, for example, if I'm doing a living room and it's a family with the kids and dogs and this, and that I'm not about to do a cotton sofa, so I'm going to do a sofa that's, you know, a perennial or something like that.

Speaker 2: 37:32

Maybe you know a fabric that's Okatex certified not got certified, but durable and they have this they have a lot of those and I'll choose a carpet that is not cotton, I'll choose probably a nylon, because they have kids and they have dogs and and so that's when I started to put my pillows obviously are easy, throw pillows are easy, but the paint is easy, the lighting I want to make sure the lighting. You know lighting to me is also very important. You know I can't stand all these bright white lights in a home. I think they're terrible for our brain and the psychology of of everything. They're just hard. They're terrible. So I like to focus on lighting as well. It's all connected definitely all connected.

Speaker 1: 38:09

I, you, you hit on something there that I exactly. That's where I was going with it as well, because we have a a lot of families, a lot of busy families with, you know, kids with dirty hands did cookies on their hand, painters and all those things, and that's where the parents' minds are there, right, like, oh my gosh, how am I going to adhere to these? You know I want to be conscientious about these factors that you're telling me about, but how do I also keep a clean home and are there ways to do that? And that's the part for me that I feel would require the most education.

Speaker 1: 38:36

I remember I did a home it was a traditional home a few years back and it was all light colored fabrics and all the things, and there was a family that lived there and I had so much flack from the public about putting these into a client's home, and it was just this general misknowledge of the public of thinking that light colored fabrics do not belong in any sort of family environment, any sort of environment where you know they have to be kept clean and on a regular basis. Right, but you're you're saying there are ways to do that, Absolutely, Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 39:06

It's all about the fabric and the durability I mean. Things like that are common sense. I had a family in the nursery. She wanted to put a shag, a white shag rug, and because we found an organic cotton one, she found one. I said are you kidding? I said there's going to be poop, vomit, everything on that part group in a week. What Right? But it didn't seem practical, you know. But yeah, you can. Light colors are beautiful, Of course, they can be durable.

Speaker 1: 39:31

Yeah, and at the very least I guess you could slip cover that baby right.

Speaker 1: 39:35

So you've taken your knowledge and you've turned it into education, as you said. We kind of touched on that, but tell me more about that, because not only do you provide your services for your clients, but now you've extended that, and thank you for doing that. By the way, thanks for giving your knowledge to other people who don't teach us a lot in design school, and even if you do go to design school, you don't learn about these things. So thanks for taking all of this and, kind of like I do with my courses, you kind of bottle it up and you put it out there for people to learn from. Tell me about your courses and your lessons and the things that you teach other designers and I think, do you teach consumers as well, or is it just for designers?

Speaker 2: 40:11

No, it's consumers. It's a lot of DIYers here.

Speaker 1: 40:13

Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 40:14

So I have a newer course which is about designing spaces for kids and nurseries, and that course, to me, is more dated and, quite honestly, john, it's for everyone, it's not just for kids' spaces, it's the same rules apply to all spaces in the home. But I just focused on this because I felt that there was such a need for it and I really really like this course a lot because I have so many great experts in the field. I have the founder of Neutropedic Mattresses, I have Elisa Bronner from Dr Bronner Soaps, I have a sleep expert, I have an occupational therapist talking about sensory design and it's a great course. It's only two hours. I made it, none of us have time and you can take it when you want. It's great for consumers.

Speaker 2: 40:58

It's in layman's terms. I'm heading the entire course and I also teach you how to design, how to put together a room, how to put together fabrics and placement and layouts, and I give my thoughts and my opinions on how I start a room. And I love this course so much and it took over a year to put together. I think it's a really, really great class. I really do. I've been getting great feedback from it and I think people have great takeaways from it. And it's easy. It's easy to understand.

Speaker 1: 41:27

Great, and then you're offering for everyone listening to the podcast. I believe you're going to offer a special. Yes, yes, I believe you're going to offer a special for everyone. Yes, yes, is that correct? Yes.

Speaker 2: 41:33

Anyone who uses a coupon code that's specific to you gets 40% off the course, which is great because the course isn't even expensive to begin with.

Speaker 1: 41:41

Okay, and we'll put that in the podcast notes for everyone. I think the code is the Designer Within and you can get a discount code for that. That's great. I love the message that you have and the message that you're spreading. The message that you have and the message that you're spreading, I love that you have this passion about it. And what I hear and what I know to be true for myself and for you and for everyone else, is when you find that passion, when you find that thing that you believe in, when you believe it wholeheartedly and you throw yourself into it, it doesn't even number one, it doesn't feel like work and number two, everything else just flows. So, naturally, the right people come to you, the right clients come to you, the right clients come to you, the right opportunities come to you and you never, ever, ever. I always say selling is serving and what you're doing is definitely a serving model, for sure, when you are providing this to other people, when you're providing the services that you have, and I'm sure you follow that belief as well.

Speaker 2: 42:29

Yes, oh, my goodness. Yeah, it's just. I feel I get so happy when I get an email from someone in Missouri who has her child's room or wants to do her living room and she's on a budget, but she wants to do it healthy, she wants to do it a vegan way, and it makes me so happy. You know what I mean? That here I am. This woman now is kind enough and smart enough and educated enough to know that she wants to create a safe space for her family and that says it all, you know, isn't that wonderful, I think.

Speaker 2: 43:05

I mentioned to you also before the call, we're starting a video series.

Speaker 1: 43:08

Yeah, let's talk about that.

Speaker 2: 43:09

I own a home in Hudson Valley, new York, which is about two hours outside of New York City. I bought this home it's almost a hundred years old. Talk about in a neglected space. I mean they found a 10 pound beehive in the rafters for the ceiling. I mean the house was so neglected we had skunks living in the house, like everything. But it's a beautiful stone Jordan style home. It's on 80 acres. It's just beautiful. It's in a very rural area north of New York City, because I'm from New York originally, originally, originally.

Speaker 2: 43:36

So my associate and I said, hey, this would be a great backdrop because it's stunning, it's just stunning Everywhere you look. It's gorgeous to use and teach people all about healthy, vegan, non-toxic design. So we have, as I was telling you before the call, we have so many hours of film footage that we started putting together episodes on paint renovations, solar power, solar panels, gardening, landscaping, fire pits, flooring, bathroom design, lighting, everything. And so we're creating this YouTube channel that will hopefully be launched within a couple of months that I think people will really enjoy be launching within a couple months. That I think people will really enjoy and the videos are anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes and you really get some great takeaways on how to design spaces that are beautiful and kind and as low in chemicals as possible.

Speaker 1: 44:24

That's exciting. There's nothing like using your own house as like this experimental prototype right To test things on and to share the information with other people because, well, I don't know, I guess you could be your worst client. I'm my worst client, debra. I'll just tell you I am my worst client ever. I don't listen to anything that I speak at all.

Speaker 2: 44:42

Well, you know what I noticed with myself. I can't make decisions for myself With a client. I can make a decision three and a half seconds With me.

Speaker 1: 44:55

I'm like I'm not sure. Should I? I don't know the culture I know, I know I'm the exact same way, the exact same way. Before we wrap up, I want to ask you a question Do you, is there anything that you hope the future holds for the vegan and non-toxic design movement? Anything? That you hope that you see in the, in the realm of changing in the industry.

Speaker 2: 45:08

Well, I hope that there's a day when people say we actually used to make sofas out of leather Like. I look forward to that day. I hope there's a day like that. How barbaric. How barbaric that we did things like that. How barbaric that we treated young children, laborers and created working environments for them that had no regulations and that they were swimming in toxins. How horrible that we did things like that. That's what I look forward to.

Speaker 1: 45:32

How do you see your role being a part of that? Do you still plan on doing the same thing, do you? Have any new you know spreading the message this was like a turning point in my life.

Speaker 2: 45:40

Quite honestly, it was. I never, I can't. When I decided to go vegan in my business, I didn't know that I would be here today speaking to you. It was just something that I did out of pure love for animals. But this is, you know, I found my. I found my, my point of being.

Speaker 1: 45:54

You really have and and it comes across through everything that you say the passion is there, the heart is there, the soul is there.

Speaker 1: 46:01

Every single thing that you're saying I can tell comes from deep within you and I applaud you for that and we should all be so lucky to find that thing.

Speaker 1: 46:09

That means so much to us and I just think it's great that you really have become this pioneer in this really distinct industry that, as you say, I hope is not so unique down the road.

Speaker 1: 46:20

I hope it is more mainstream and I hope more people do want for it, ask for it, and I hope more vendors are listening to this and will implement that as well. You know, as I walk around High Point Market and Las Vegas Market and you can actually get direct interaction with these vendors and sometimes even the owners of the companies are there. So I think that's a great place or great time to come up to them and just start asking these questions and, as you say, put it right out there in front of them and tell them what you're looking for and let them know that you want to see some changes in our industry. And I think that as those little little steps, those little grassroots efforts start to pay off eventually, and before you know it, there's a huge movement and once again, thank you for just being a huge part of that. I think it's wonderful.

Speaker 2: 46:58

Well, thank you for letting me speak about it. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 47:01

Yeah, tell everybody where they can find you if they want to find this new video series once it's out, but in the meantime, where they can find you now on social media, your website, all that good stuff.

Speaker 2: 47:18

And we'll put it in the show notes. Thank you so much. If they go to Demare Design, they can get access to deborahdemarecom. They can see the Instagram page. We have a very active Facebook group, so I think that's a good start going to demaredesigncom.

Speaker 1: 47:23

Perfect Well, deborah, thank you very much for being here today. Thanks for all of the information, and I know that it has inspired all of my listeners.

Speaker 2: 47:29

Thank you so much, John. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 47:32

Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the Designer Within podcast. It means the world to me. If you're ready to dive deeper into the topics that we've discussed here, be sure to check out my online coaching and courses program, DesignSuccessAcademycom. Here I will teach you everything you need to know to run your interior design business, from starting the project all the way to the end, including marketing and pricing your services for profit. And for more information on this podcast, including how to be a guest or my design services in general, go to johnmcclainco. That's johnmcclainco. See you soon, friend.