Burnout and Boundaries: Embracing Mindfulness in the World of Design with Lori Miller

Have you ever felt the wear and tear of burnout creeping into your life, inching its way into your creative soul? I know I have, and it's time to talk about the lifeline that boundaries are in our industry. Today's episode of the Designer Within brings in Lori Miller, an interior designer with a unique twist—her expertise in mental health counseling. We peel back the layers of how psychological principles can shape the spaces we live in, affecting our overall well-being. I get personal with my own brushes with burnout and share the pivotal steps I've taken to keep my mental health on track amidst the demands of our bustling field.

Navigating the emotional labyrinth of client relationships and the pressures of home renovations can be a daunting task for designers, but it's one we dissect with care. We discuss striking the right chords with our clients, understanding their deeper motivations, and the undeniable impact that the COVID-19 pandemic has had on all of us within the design industry. Lori sheds light on the subtle but potent signals of burnout, and we contemplate strategies to manage stress before it overtakes us.

I wrap things up with a heart-to-heart on the sacredness of Sundays, the power of a pause, and the transformative nature of mindfulness practices in our daily routines. If you're looking for a nudge towards self-care, a reminder to breathe, or practical tips on keeping your professional balance without tipping over, this is your sign.

Highlights of our convo:
* The signs of burnout and how to notice them
* How to avoid burnout altogether using tools you already have
* Psychology tactics to work with clients from the very beginning
* How boundaries and expectations are key

I hope you take the time to TRULY listen to this episode and I hope if you need help you seek it. Notice the signs of burnout as it reveals itself to you and take care of it now. You are worth it.

For more information on Lori Miller:

What if you could finally create the interior design business of your dreams while consistently making 6 figures and doing it all with no stress? Join Design Business Fast Track today to make your Design Business dreams a reality!

www.designbusinessfasttrack.com

For all things John: www.johnmcclain.co
For more information on my online Courses & Coaching Program for Interior Designers, visit: https://designsuccessacademy.com/
Order a signed copy of John's book: The Designer Within (or purchase anywhere books are sold!) https://buy.stripe.com/dR67vBgmo41j1PyfYZ
JOIN OUR DESIGNER WITHIN CLUB for all of the latest news, updates, and freebies! https://view.flodesk.com/pages/649dd053cac3e37f36e4a45e

CHECK OUT MYDOMA STUDIO WITH A FREE 30 DAY TRIAL USING THIS LINK!
https://www.mydomastudio.com/john

Connect With John!
Instagram
Facebook
Tik Tok
LinkedIn

...

Transcript

John McClain: 0:00

I know sometimes we do tend to go to that drastic point in our lives where we're like let's just forget the whole thing and get rid of everything and forget it all. But there are steps in the middle of that where we can stop and say, ok, let's establish situations where we can fix that. Two things with me boundaries and delegation.

Lori Miller: 0:19

So boundaries are huge, for sure, because nobody has them anymore, right? I mean, we're working on top of each other, we're working from home, we're in each other's space, where that's another piece of it, right? We don't get up and have a routine and go to work and sit in our cubicle and come home we're like, okay, I'm spread out on my dining room table and the boundary piece is big. But then we were talking about mindfulness before, and mindfulness is a big deal. Like you said, you take a breath, you focus on what you're thinking, you connect, you connect with your body. You're like, okay, this is an unrealistic thought, or let me step away from this thought, because I have to look at it differently. I'll let it flow, because feelings aren't thoughts. All they are is feelings. Thoughts are only feelings, right? Hey, y'all you thoughts, all they are is feelings.

John McClain: 1:04

Thoughts are only feelings, right? Hey y'all, you're listening to the Designer Within Podcast, episode number 43. I'm John McClain and welcome to the Designer Within Podcast, the business-minded podcast created for creative entrepreneurs by a creative entrepreneur that's me. I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that can come with our careers, and I'm here to sip and spill the tea with you. It's time to dive deep within yourself and redesign your own business and your life from the inside out. Together, we will uncover secrets and share valuable insights. So prepare for a transformative experience, my friends, because it's time to unleash the designer within. Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the designer within. I am your host, john McClain, very happy to have you here. As always, you're in for a treat on today's episode.

John McClain: 1:59

This is a very, very timely episode. Even though May is Mental Health Awareness Month, I feel there's always a good time to talk about mental health and to talk about burnout and specifically, to talk about the psychological aspects of what we do as interior designers and how we bring the psychological aspects of our business into our careers and how we bring that into working with our clients. And today on the podcast, I have Lori Miller. Lori is the founder and principal designer of LGC Interiors, which creates luxury spaces that combine personal well-being and functional design. Lori has a background in mental health counseling and she has worked in various fields, including get this a director of crime victims program and running psychiatric units. Yes, very, very interesting. Lori's vibrant personality and holistic approach to interior design have led her to being featured on numerous media outlets and named as one of the top 10 design firms.

John McClain: 3:02

You're going to love this episode. Get your pen and paper out. You're probably going to want to listen to this episode a couple of times, but, most importantly, I want you to take heart, especially if you are nearing the signs of burnout, if you have seen some of the signs of burnout that we are going to speak about, or if you just simply want to listen because you want to prevent burnout from ever happening in your career or in your business, and this episode will dive into that, and we're also going to be talking about some psychological aspects of our business and how to best work with some clients. I'm also going to talk about how I experienced burnout and got through that myself. So, that being said, I hope you enjoyed this wonderful episode with Lori Miller with LGC Interiors. Lori, welcome to the Designer Within Podcast.

Lori Miller: 3:53

Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.

John McClain: 3:55

I am so excited to have you here. I might even constitute this as my own therapy session with you today.

Lori Miller: 4:03

Anytime you want Free services.

John McClain: 4:07

No, seriously, in all seriousness, this is such a great topic because I feel like working on our own mindfulness and our own minds in general and just being thoughtful about that is always a great topic, and there's never a bad time to do that, and anytime we can carve out a space in our lives to just think about creating space and time for ourselves to really dive into what's going well, what's going wrong and how to work on that is just a good thing to do.

John McClain: 4:36

So we have so much to talk about on this episode today, but before we get into that, I gave a little bio about you, but I'd like to hear it in your own words, because your background is really interesting, because you have one foot. Honestly, I will tell you this I would love to have this background because I do feel, as we are all psychologists, as designers, I would love to have one foot in the psychology realm and one foot in the designer realm as a designer, and you do have that. So tell me how that came to be in your life and why that came to be for you.

Lori Miller: 5:10

So I was definitely a strange kid. You know, I had a family in construction, I was very creative and my cat runs across.

Lori Miller: 5:20

I was super creative and I thought I was going to be an art major in school. I was super creative and I thought I was going to be an art major in school, but I also used to read Freud. So I was like 10, 11 years old and I was fascinated by this whole, like Sybil, tv awards, whatever. When I started art school in college I had an art professor who told me you will never be good at this and I literally took it to heart and I was like I'm never painting again and had a meltdown. I was like, oh my God, I'm not good at this and I was like, okay, so I pivoted and I went into psychology and I was like, ok, so I pivoted and I went into psychology and I love the psychological aspect of it. I loved learning how to do testing and understanding colors and how that affects things. You know, we got a lot into the holistic part of life and I was just on the cusp of crystals and spiritual and all these fun things and doing meditations and it was interesting to me. So I picked that up, moved out to California and I was like, wow, this is great over here, I love this. And all of a sudden I picked up a watercolor and I started drawing and painting again and I was like, oh my God, like I miss this part of myself so much. And when I was, I got into my first job, I met my ex-husband, who was, then, you know, the love of my life, of course, and we bought our first house on literally a correction officer's salary and a social work salary, so everything was going to be done by us. It was horrible. The house was so disgusting. I mean, there was bugs falling off the out of the cabinetry and the house like smelled like smoke and the windows were yellow from the nicotine. And we just like spent hours like pulling this house apart and we always wanted to be on the water. And nine months later the house was finished, I was all comfortable and settled in and all of a sudden I found to be on the water. And nine months later, the house was finished, I was all comfortable and settled in and all of a sudden I found a house on the water for sale and I'm like, oh, we'll just do it again. So, lo and behold, thank God I was in my like 30s. So, lo and behold, we take another house apart.

Lori Miller: 7:39

And after I was done, I had spent a year in the wallpaper store and I was looking for wallpapers. I knew every manufacturer, I knew every sales rep. I lived there. I was like this is a great place. So my boss at the time wasn't my boss and he's like you know, we had our Saturday person quit. Do you want a job? So I was like, well, I already have a job, I'm running the psych units at Rikers but this could be like a welcome break. So I took a Saturday job.

Lori Miller: 8:08

I was working on commission, I was making $100, $150 a day, I was in my glory and he ended up selling the store to the manager and the manager put it into bankruptcy and he's like Lori, just go back to school, you're really good at this. I'm like you're out of your mind. I already have a degree, I have a master's, I don't need another degree. He's like just go back to school, get a certificate, do something, you're really good at it. So I went to go sell furniture and then I worked in a flooring place and the flooring place, the owner of the store. You can't make this up right. Only in our industry would this happen.

Lori Miller: 8:46

The guy who owned the man who owned the flooring store ended up getting arrested for prostitution, embezzlement, cocaine possession and I was like, wow, both worlds collide, this is great. I go from jail to jail. And I said you know what, I'm going to go back to school. And I did. And I said you know what? I'm going to go back to school? And I did. And I took myself back to school and I literally had such anxiety every morning before my drawing class and I would go to the bathroom. I would you know I was sick in the bathroom. I was like I sweat, just. But I pushed through it and she was like you're amazing. And I was like, oh my God, thank you, like that's so cool from the professor who told me I couldn't do it.

Lori Miller: 9:31

And then we were taking the AutoCAD class and our professor was an engineer. She's like Lori, just hang out a shingle. She's like you've worked for everybody already, you've already in your internship. She's like, just hang out a shingle. So already, you've already in your internship. She's like, just hang out a shingle. So at that point I was I don't know how many years I had been at Rikers and they asked me to run the crime victims program for the Queens DA and I was like I have a design business, I can't take this job, and you know. And he just like naivety is a beautiful thing. So he said, lori, I don't care what you do, he goes work nights, just get the program, hire who you want, do whatever you need to do. He's like I really don't care and I was like okay. So I ran my business, I started the crime victims program and it was just, it's just been an amazing ride, it's really been amazing wow, okay, yeah, that is a story that I've never heard.

John McClain: 10:33

Yeah, that is the first for me. What a what a journey, you know. But you know, what I take away from that, truthfully, is that you had a passion for design and you loved it so much that it was not going to let you go. It was not going to tell you like, oh, you were told no by a professor or a teacher back in the day and you were told that it was not for you. But deep down inside you knew that it was something that was, truthfully, was passionate in your soul and that you needed it to be fulfilled because it kept finding ways to surface in your life. And I guess, in a lot of ways, as you said, it was therapeutic for you to do those tasks on your own. And then suddenly you're like, oh wait, no, this needs to be a larger part of my life and it was going to find a way to be a larger part of your life. And now you found a way to, I guess would you say, 50-50 or what would be?

John McClain: 11:26

the percentage 50-50. Okay.

Lori Miller: 11:27

It's really 50-50 and they're constantly intertwined Mental health clients become design clients, design clients become mental health clients and I think there's a total overlap. You can't feel good in your space unless it's cleared, unless it's organized, unless it's put together properly. And you can't put your space together if you don't have a clear head and you know sustainability is huge. It's your health, it's your wellness, it's how you think and feel. So all of that, you know, really ties in nicely.

John McClain: 12:05

It sure does, and I think for all of us. We have psychological aspects that we deal with with our clients, and I see it happening from that very first phone call. And there's two ways, by the way, that I want to handle this conversation that we're having today. I want to talk about how you bring your psychology degree and your background with your clients and how that affects how you do business, but also the aspects that you bring for designers and the services that you have for us. So first of all, I want to go down the road of how you work with your clients and how your psychology background finds its way to the surface there.

John McClain: 12:42

Because when I'm speaking, as I said, with someone on a discovery call, at the very beginning I start to kind of pick up on things that they're saying or you know little nuances in their voice or little things about what they're wanting to spend, or little ways that they're just saying in a conversation. And then later on, as you go into the actual in-home consultation, you see even further. Oh, if it's a spouse, you see how the spouses speak to one another and if one puts the other one down, or if one has the leverage power in the relationship or you just start to pick up on little things like that. When do you start to integrate your psychology background into the client conversation? Does it come with a questionnaire? Does it come with a questionnaire? Does it come with, like, do you have a specific set of questions that you ask, because I find this so intriguing with your specific psychology degree? Knowing that you have that, do you have specific questions that you ask your clients to want to know more about them, to build upon that relationship with your psychology background?

Lori Miller: 15:29

So yes, and sort of right, okay, Through a lot of coaching from other coaches, it's the typical questions who makes the decisions right? So, and then I've learned that the answers to those questions really are the psychological answers as well. So what I used to do was do an in-person, sit down with them and observe who's answering me, who's making that decision? How does the wife talk to the husband? Like you said, that was the in-person. But all of a sudden, from a business perspective and from our coaches, it's like oh, those are the questions that really hone in on what I'm observing.

Lori Miller: 16:11

It really starts like you said at the very beginning Hi, what are you looking for? How do you live? You know what's going on currently that's making you want to do these changes. What's your budget? What do you do for a living? Are you busy? Are you juggling six kids and a law practice? And you know, I mean, you know our clients have a lot of responsibility too, or some of them don't. So that's, you know. What do you do with your free time? Are you hosting Canasta? You know? Or what's happening? So it's really at the very beginning. And then I get into the nitty gritty what do you like? Why do you like that? Let's look at that. How does that make you feel? And then that comes into colors, patterns, textures, clothing. Let's look in your closet. So it's really an in-depth. You know what are we doing here. What do you need and how can I help you?

John McClain: 17:00

Sounds like you do this the exact same way that I do it. I, or maybe even a little deeper I I always find that there's an emotional connection, an emotional reason for why someone wants to make a change in their home. Yes, they want to renovate their home. But why do they want to do that renovation? Is it because they want to spend more time with their family and this is going to, in their eyes, allow them to spend more time with their family? Or is it that they want to entertain more?

John McClain: 17:28

And by opening up these walls, it's going to allow them to have more parties and, as you said, you know, play, Canasta or whatever. So is this going to have a bigger effect on their lives? There always seems to be some emotional outcome that they're looking to achieve, I find, and our pathway to get them there is the design, is the renovation, is the work that we do to get them to the finish line, to that emotional reaction that they're looking for. And sometimes we have to just scratch the surface just a little bit to find out what they're looking for, because that sometimes is not what they tell us right away from the first moment that we start speaking with them.

Lori Miller: 18:04

I find Right, exactly. Yeah, we have to pry.

John McClain: 18:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so with COVID, and I hate to keep talking about covid, but you know, I know it's.

John McClain: 18:14

I hate to even say the word, but I will say this that c word, the c word, but it still does have an effect and it's still. It's still a lingering effect. Some people have still health effects from it. Unfortunately, all of us still have emotional baggage, emotional effects and psychological effects from that. So during that time, you know, we were all designers where a lot of people were very busy, a lot of people were overwhelmed, overworked and so forth. And then, you know, things changed and then that continued or didn't continue.

John McClain: 18:46

But for designers who started to get overwhelmed and overworked and just exhausted from all of that, first of all, did you speak to designers who did have this effect and who did see that effect within themselves? And for those people who might be going through that, I'd like to know what are the signs for someone who might say, huh, I think I'm overwhelmed, I think that I might be on the verge of burnout. I think that this is looking like I'm going down that burnout pathway, but I'm not sure if I am or I'm afraid to put that label on it because it's going to back me into a corner that I have to now deal with it. So what are some burnout signs that you have seen that maybe you've dealt with with other clients that you've worked with, because you do work with designers on the other side of your business. So what are some of those signs that maybe people are afraid to deal with, or that they're a little you know, I don't know scared to even knock on the door of burnout?

Lori Miller: 19:44

Right, exactly. So I think the first sign is being short tempered. It's kind of like all of a sudden you find yourself a little irritable. You're talking to a vendor and you're like God, really. You're like, here we go again, you know, and they're on the front lines as well, but they're our frustration, they're our source of frustration. What do you mean? You can't get that to me. What do you mean? It came in broken and you're not answering my call. You know, you know like I need. I need immediate response here and normally pre right, pre-see.

John McClain: 20:17

Yeah.

Lori Miller: 20:17

You know we'd be like, ok, I can give you a day. Now we're like, no, I want it resolved now, because I don't know where you're going, I don't know if you're going to be here tomorrow, I don't know if you're ever going to get it resolved. So you know that short temperedness and irritability. It's like you look at the phone and you're like, oh God, is he calling me again? You know, or is it another text message from that client saying that the blue color I picked is just slightly off and should have been one percent white? You know. So you know, it's the those little things that you're kind of catch yourself and you're like, oh my God, I'm really thinking that way, like I'm thinking my clients are horrible, or you know, and it's really not the client, it's the burden of responsibility that we bear for an entire project. Contractor walks in. He's responsible for putting the cabinets in. He's responsible for putting, you know, whatever on the wall. We're responsible for the carpenter, we're responsible for the plumbing looks when, is you know? So every aspect of the job falls under us. Does it look good? Is it right? Is the client going to be happy? So that irritability seeps through.

Lori Miller: 21:26

Then it's the anxiety, and everyone experiences anxiety a little bit differently. I mean, there's full-blown anxiety attacks where you're just paralyzed, you feel that pain in your chest. You think you're having a heart attack, you can't breathe and you're like, oh my God, I'm going to die now, you know. But then there's like just that little bit of oh my God, I can't catch my breath, or I'm shaking, or I'm checked out, like what the hell was I doing? Like did you say something? You know, those anxiety pieces really come up for us and it's knowing what to do for that. So it's really. Those are the two major things that I've seen. And I've seen Kaleeb Anderson. I know he's spoken about it. He's had, you know, anxiety. So it's not, you know, it's across the board, and I mean these are huge designers that we look up to as well.

John McClain: 22:23

I know for myself it was something that I did, experience it, and it did start to creep, creep, creep. A little bit here, a little bit there, and I was, I did that. I, I did exactly what I just described to you. I kept brushing it off and brushing it off and, oh no, I can do that. Oh no, I can pile one more thing on my plate. Oh no, I can. I can do that speaking engagement and do this interview and work with this client and train this new employee and, you know, do this other thing and whatever.

John McClain: 22:53

And before I knew it, what hit the fan with me was I and I've spoken about this on social media, but I was at a large, large industry event and I was on stage speaking industry event and I was on stage speaking, I was doing my thing and you know on and doing the whole thing. And I got off stage and I was supposed to speak with other people individually, answer questions one on one, and I couldn't even verbalize one word, lori, I couldn't even talk. The words would not come out of my mouth. It was like oh, literally yeah. And so I walked as fast as I could, like I had to leave, because my, I did exactly. My heart was pounding, you know, the chest, the stress and everything in my chest. And so I found a corner in a cafe and I turned the chair away from the room and I just stared at the corner of the room and I just waited until I calmed down. But that was the first, obviously a big moment for me and of course I stopped you know, therapy and medication and so forth from there, which really really did help me.

John McClain: 23:47

So from that point I said you can't let this happen to you again. Nothing is worth your health and just no amount of work, no amount of success, no amount of whatever brand recognition that you're trying to achieve is worth this to achieve that. And so, through all of those wonderful therapy sessions and again medication, all the things, it really has changed the way that I look at things and I don't want other people to go through that. But you know what was so interesting?

John McClain: 24:17

I reached out one on one during that time to designer friends that I knew and I just said, hey, how you doing Just as a check in right, just said hey, how you doing Just as a check in Right, and I was checking in with them just to say hi and they were like I don't know. It's just so weird. Right now I'm not feeling too well. I'm like well, let me tell me more about that. So many people were having those those same ideas, so those same feelings, those same symptoms, but they were scared to say anything about it and I wish more people would speak up and talk about that more. Do you think, do you find that fear of speaking about it is is embarrassing to some people, is as are they ashamed about it? Is there, is there a shame in the world about burnout and just not being able to to keep up with other people?

Lori Miller: 25:00

It used to be more so, I think, with more people coming out and talking about it and people who are idols. I mean, we see you know music people talking about it. We see you know celebrities you know you're a celebrity here. You are talking about it. You know everybody knows, come on, so you know. But I think it normalizes it and I think it makes us more human. But I do still think that people have the you don't talk about. You know people will see you as weak, they'll see you as incompetent. So I think the more we get that out and the more we talk about it, the less that will happen and maybe the anxiety will lessen also, because that's just an additional pressure. It's like I can't talk about it Now, I have to hold it in.

John McClain: 25:51

Yeah, I agree, and I think it's just normalizing it and I think that we have what mental health month is May, I believe Right. So we have one month where we sort of wave the flag and say it's okay, say I'm nuts. Yeah, right.

John McClain: 26:07

Free to be me yeah, right, there's that saying that they say you know I'm from georgia. So they said we say you know, in the south we don't hide our crazy people, we put them right on the front porch. That's right. I'm gonna put myself. I'm gonna put myself right on the front porch and just say, here I but, but I it's not, by the way, it's not being crazy, and I'm not saying no, I'm just saying that.

John McClain: 26:30

Okay, of saying and proud to say that it is fine and I applaud people who say I need help and it's time to get help, because I would rather you say I need help than you wither away. Because you used a word when we were speaking before we went live that resonated with me. You used the word trauma and I feel like that is such a good word to describe the point that a lot of people get to before they realize that they need help and it is very traumatic when they get to that lowest level. What level of trauma do you find that people do sometimes get to, as a designer, for instance, when they're seeking help, and when they're looking for help, do they get to the point of losing clients, losing their business? I mean, what have you seen people get to before you know they're reaching for help or when they're reaching out to help for you. What levels of help or what levels of need are they asking for from you?

Lori Miller: 27:22

I think they feel like they want to quit. You know, I don't know if it's necessarily. They could be at the pinnacle of their career you know and have a bustling, like you know.

Lori Miller: 27:32

Like you said you were speaking, you were, you know you were here, you had this client, you were training somebody new. That's all growth and expansion. But with that comes additional responsibility and knowing how to handle that and taking that time for yourself and not, you know, crossing that boundary and saying you can't text me past six o'clock and if you do, answering you for 24 hours, you know so. And then of course, it's always the fear Well, 24 hours later, I'm going to forget the text and there's going to be 120 more behind it. So you know, and that's what happens to emails, texts, whatever. But I think it's when people just are really ready to quit. They're done, they're like, ok, I can't take on anymore, or I can't do anymore. Or like when the you know, when their clients have fallen away and the business is no more and they have to rework to build it, you know. So both of those scenarios are key to rework, to build it.

John McClain: 28:28

You know. So both of those scenarios are key. I do find that when we're in a difficult situation we sometimes avoid that middle messy part, right when we're trying to work through it. We tend to go to the bad, like let's just stop it now, let's just burn the whole thing down, forget everything, right Versus. If you just breathe through that difficult part, usually last like that difficult part I find for me is about I don't know like 60 seconds, something like that.

John McClain: 28:52

I just kind of breathe through that moment and like through that rough part, like those negative emotions in my head, not anxiety attack necessarily, but the negative thoughts typically for me are about a minute ish. I can kind of breathe through those and go through those negative. So we have negative thoughts throughout the entire day. But I know sometimes we do tend to go to that drastic point in our lives where we're like let's just forget the whole thing and get rid of everything and forget it all. But there are steps in the middle of that where we can stop and say, okay, let's establish situations where we can fix that. I agree with you. I find that boundaries are the best way to deal with that and that was what was part of the way that I fixed that as well. Two things with me boundaries and delegation. I found that by delegating tasks to other people were very helpful for me.

John McClain: 29:43

So do you find that those two things are things that you suggest for people to deal with, and what other ideas or concepts do you have that you suggest people work with?

Lori Miller: 29:52

So boundaries are huge for sure, because nobody has them anymore, right? I mean, we're working on top of each other, we're working from home, we're in each other's space, where that's another piece of it, right? We don't get up and have a routine and go to work and sit in our cubicle and come home we're like, ok, I'm spread out on my dining room table and you know whatever. So the boundary piece is big. But then we were talking about mindfulness before, and you know it used to be meditation or whatever people called it. Throughout every 10, every decade, it's called something else. But mindfulness is a big deal.

Lori Miller: 30:29

Like you said, you take a breath, you focus on what you're thinking, you connect, you connect with your body. You're like, okay, this is an unrealistic thought. Or let me step away from this thought because I have to look at it differently. I'll let it flow, because feelings aren't thoughts. All they are is feelings. Thoughts are only feelings, right?

Lori Miller: 30:53

So usually, if we're going to get in an accident, we hit the brake and then we panic because we had that thought oh my God, I almost had an accident and then we're shaking. So it's the thought and we're just like, okay, just let me breathe through it. Let me feel the ground right. They say hug a tree, feel the earth spirit. So that's what we, you know, that's what we should do is just take that breath and calm ourselves. Sometimes, talking to a friend phone, a friend um, talking to like you did, you spoke to other designers it's like like no, I have camaraderie, I'm not here, isolated by myself. This is not just me suffering with this phone call. You know, thank God there's coaches and people and you know that we can reach out to it's all of those things and tidbits and knowing what to use when.

John McClain: 31:42

Yes and again, not to feel embarrassed or less than for having those feelings. I think that's definitely a critical part of it too. The other thing, too, I feel like as designers we do. You said it in the beginning. You said that we always feel we have to take that burden of the project on for us. We have to take on the burden of the contractor and of the wallpaper installer and of the vendor and of all the people, and there is that perfectionist status that we feel we have to keep up with the client too. Do you have any thoughts on that concept of perfectionism and what we can do to combat that if we are finding ourselves going down the negative lane of a perfectionist?

Lori Miller: 32:25

Tricks for me, right, because part of that is the truth. You know, we're taking care. It's almost like having a baby you're taking care of everything and the client is the baby. And now they're challenging us, which I think is part of what it is. They're challenging us what do you mean? I think we should be using, you know, satin instead of meth, Because, you know, my neighbor on the neighborhood watch of Facebook said that you know her color, you know on her trim.

Lori Miller: 32:56

So you know, we, we do have a reality piece of that. But it's also kind of keeping us ourselves in check and say I have the knowledge, I can do this, keeping ourselves in check and say I have the knowledge, I can do this. And if not, I don't have to be all things to everybody. There's YouTube, there's experts. You know there's an instruction manual in the fireplace box, right, so we can look at the instruction manual. It's our burden for us that we put on ourselves versus where is that reality piece that maybe we don't have to know it all, but we can manage it so and it's funny.

Lori Miller: 33:37

I had that conversation with a contractor today because I was you know, I'm dealing with a contractor and I have a builder, and the contractor wasn't, didn't know, i't know, he didn't know how to put the molding in the wall or whatever. And I was like I'm saying you know you use the glue and you know you use the nail, like the nails, and it's, you know, this is done all the time. And I'm showing him pictures and I'm like, but I'm about ready to explode, right, and I'm like I'm going to call my builder and I called him up and he's he builds huge, huge projects. You know, like buildings, massive hospitals. And I called him up and I'm like listen, I'm like I'm struggling here.

Lori Miller: 34:19

Am I missing something? He goes Lori, I don't know how to build. He's like I manage the project and I'm like all right, if you're 6'2 and 200 plus pounds, and you're telling me that you're managing these builders and you don't know how to do this, I feel so good. So you know, it's that check-in, like all right, I don't have to know it, I just have to look it up and explain it. And you know that's part of our issues.

John McClain: 34:44

That is so well said, because I find if I surround myself with people who are the experts and who do know how to do those things, I have no problem with saying to the client or to anyone I don't know how to do that. I'm sorry, but I will ask this person who I surround myself with, who I did bring on as a team member and who will tell you exactly how to do that, or I will ask them today and they will tell me tonight and I will tell you tomorrow the answer to that question. There is nothing wrong with that, because you're still bringing the answer. You don't have to have all of the answers right away for everybody. You do have to have resources to provide that answer I understand that part but you don't have to always have the answers, which I think is what you're getting at there. You're just surrounding yourself with the people who have those answers to provide to your clients.

Lori Miller: 35:35

Exactly.

John McClain: 35:36

Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lori Miller: 35:38

Perfect, I think you said it before too. I'm trying to remember what you said, but you said it before also. You're like all right, you know, you call, your, call your rep or you, you know, if you can't, you know the color's not coming out right on the wall you call you sharon williams, a benjamin moore rep, or whoever, and they, yeah yeah, yeah, there's a reason we have those people and when I first started bringing my team members on, they were trying to do everything as a friend.

John McClain: 36:05

Since they were trying to do everything, let's say we had a woodworker who was doing a built-in for us they would try to do everything to give to that woodworker and I would say, hey, guys, you don't have to do all of that, like part of their job is to sometimes give us the drawing.

Lori Miller: 36:18

Sometimes they're like wait, wait what they would give us.

John McClain: 36:20

I said, yeah, they actually will take that off of our plate. So I would tell my team members hey, look, that'll save us three hours of work to let them do that part of it, and then they actually have that obligation on their end to make sure that those are correct, and then all we do is make changes. It sort of blew their mind when I said, hey, take this responsibility off of your plate, give it to them, and then all we're doing is approving what they're giving us, and they were like, oh, wow, that's wonderful, I can move on to something else. Yes, you can, and the responsibility made of that is also off of your shoulders. So, yes, I love that concept.

John McClain: 36:52

You had mentioned, too, sort of the pressure that we talked about, the pressure of the world and we and and going a little deeper there with social media and with television and all the things that are out there, all the fixed rep shows and all of that. Is there trauma surrounding that? Are out there, all the fixed rep shows and all of that. Is there trauma surrounding that? Are there issues that we face as designers that we can feel from the pressure of social media, and can you speak on that for us.

Lori Miller: 37:19

You and I are going to do a show on that. Absolutely I mean the shows are so unrealistic. Absolutely I mean the shows are so unrealistic. I mean it's easy to have a budget of $30,000 to build a house when Lowe's or Home Depot is donating the wood and you know Viking is donating, you know a stove, or you know we contractor is donating his time, but it only costs $30,000 to build the mansion in two days, no less, right? So you know that behind the scenes stuff is. It creates unrealistic expectations, it creates unrealistic budgets, creates unrealistic camaraderie.

Lori Miller: 38:04

I mean your clients really need to know we're going to be in your house for two months or three or six or a year and your kitchen is not going to be done in two weeks. Not going to happen. So you know the cabinets aren't going to come with a countertop. It's going to take a week or two weeks or sometimes three to get it fabricated. So let's set you up for reality. And clients don't want to hear that anymore. They're like what? I can go on Wayfair and I can buy this and I can do that. I can. George to the rescue. He did that in a week. So you know it's so unreal. It's not life.

John McClain: 38:44

Yeah, I agree with that, and I find too that once I realized that by setting clear expectations, it not only set my clients on the right path and it set them up for understanding what was going to happen. It lowered my stress level by knowing that I had to lay my head every night on my pillow and understand that I'm not going to wake up to a client who had no idea what was going to happen in their home the next day, or that they didn't know what they were going to be charged for. You know that that wallpaper or that the cost of their project was going to be X when they expected it to be Y. So expectation setting is, I think, so many people are just afraid to say the number or afraid to say the time frame because of fear of letting someone down.

John McClain: 39:33

And I think too, sometimes the fear of letting someone down, just in life in general, is what holds us back, because we're afraid to let our parents down or our spouse or whatever. So we don't say the full truth of something or whatever. So we don't say the full truth of something. And when we don't do that, it's such a disservice to the other person and a disservice to ourselves, because then you have to just spin and spin, and spin and spin and spin to try to find that truth somewhere in there. But if you were just straightforward from the beginning, don't you find that you never have to come back and circle the airport again and try to like oh, what did I say there and what do I need to do to cover up this? Because the facts are the facts. So is that something that you find is a way to avoid stress and trauma and burnout is just to set clear expectations from the get-go?

Lori Miller: 40:22

Yes, for the most part. I think some people, no matter what you say, hear what they want to hear. And I see it a lot when I'm doing like couples therapy or relationships I don't want to have a serious relationship and I don't want to get married. And the other person goes well, maybe they'll like me and then they'll have a serious relationship. And then you go on and it's like two months down the road and they're like OK, we getting married, and the other person's like what, we had this conversation. I told you from the get go. I'm not having a serious relationship.

Lori Miller: 41:01

So, you know, I think sometimes it happens with our clients too Like I don't know what they're talking about. They're just telling me it's 10 weeks and it's really gonna be four, right? So on top of having that dialogue and on top of giving that to them in writing, right, I think, to continue to reiterate that week after, okay, take out that piece of paper. All right, we finished week one, here's what happened. Now we're going into week two, so that we're constantly on the back end and you know, in reality we're not all perfect Sometimes, it happens sometimes.

Lori Miller: 41:39

But to have the ideal that we can do, you know, to just touch base with them on Friday or Monday and say here's where we're at, here's an email you can check in. You know there's so many programs out there now where they can see what the status is, so we don't even have to tell them. You know, maybe it's a client you just don't feel you need to talk to and they could just check in on. You know the communication. So there's so many pieces to that. I remember when I first started we didn't have emails, we didn't have computers. I'm old right, but I used to hand them a piece of paper in my packet said Murphy's Law, anything that can go wrong will, but we will fix it.

Lori Miller: 42:19

Love it in Canva instead of in a brochure, and I think it's so important to let them know look, we're going to be there with you. You don't have to call us in a panic and say, oh my god, you know what. It's simple. You know we're here, we'll take care of it. Don't panic Communication. This is the expectation weekends no text message.

John McClain: 43:02

We don't ever text mess. We don't do text messages. Here's how we communicate, here's when. Here's how we do invoices, blah, blah, blah. So it just sets the expectations from the get-go, very, very beginning before we even start to work together, and I love that.

John McClain: 43:13

But that doesn't deal with the differences in personalities that every client has, right, because, as you're saying, one client and one person may hear something differently and it may not even resonate with them. I find that you have to be a chameleon of sorts with clients and still have to say things differently to some people, or they just don't hear it. Right, exactly Right. What tips do you have to sort of dig beneath the surface to figure out how to find out, first of all, who that person is and then, second of all, to speak to that person in a way that they will understand it Right. Because I know we can't just blanket speak to people in one manner and expect everybody to understand us the way that we're speaking, because, as you said, everyone does receive things differently. So how do we speak to people in a way that that person's going to understand it? Over here, mr Smith, and then Mrs Jones, we have to speak to Mrs Jones a little bit differently, but give the same message.

Lori Miller: 44:15

So I think it's partly on the interview process, when you're assessing who that client is, how they're communicating with you. Everybody learns differently. So some people hear, some people see a visual. So I think, all methods of communication, sometimes it's even just passing it to someone on your staff and they hear it better from that. You know, I may not hear it from you because you're a male, but I may hear it better from them. You know I may not hear it from you because you're a male, but I may hear it better from Susie, who has a little bit of that feminine touch. So it's knowing. Is there a gender difference? You know, especially with older people, they're more trained to. You know, I have it with men all the time Like great, I'm a female. They're not going to hear it. Come on over, you know, say it to them nicely. So I think you know you really have to know your client and tune into that at the very beginning.

John McClain: 45:12

Oh, that's great advice, very good advice. Now, looking back, I can think about different consultations where I've taken a member of my team with me and I can see where a client has had a different rapport with that team member than they've had with me and I'm like, oh, okay, you're going to do all the presentations with her, because I can see how you're really clicking with her, because she is speaking to you because she has three kids and I don't have any kids and you have kids, and so there's that, there's that bond that's instantly there. So that's a very, very good point If you do have team members and you have other people on your team is to maybe allow them to speak with your clients.

John McClain: 45:47

I think that's great and even if you don't, I think there's still other ways to find commonalities between each one of you and just you know that old saying avoid religion and politics, right? Yes, exactly.

Lori Miller: 46:02

Exactly.

John McClain: 46:03

I think that's great. You know, in the busyness of life and in the busyness of our jobs and everything, what do you recommend? How do we take time for ourselves? How do we find those ways to take time for ourselves and everything that we do? Do you recommend doing it daily? Do you recommend doing it on a standard practice? I mean, I try to meditate every morning as my practice to do that, and I know meditation can look differently for everyone and sometimes it feels a little quote, unquote, woo, woo for everybody. But I think that it can just be taking a walk and doing things whatever is good for you. But how often do you suggest people take time for themselves? And then, how do you suggest people take time for themselves?

Lori Miller: 46:42

You know, I think everybody's different. Some people prioritize going to the gym. So for sure, you know, make it a point. You know, first thing in the morning you go to the gym, whether it's yoga, whether it's a treadmill, whether it's walking outside. You know, I think that little bit of movement can help some people, even if it's 10 minutes.

Lori Miller: 47:02

For me personally, I have to have my half an hour in the morning, right, I do before I go to bed, I do my meditation, because I'm also at spiritual practice, and then I take Sundays. Sundays are, you know, either family day, rest day, friend day. You know we have brunch, so I manage to do. You know, day a friend day. You know we have brunch, so I manage to do. You know four things in a month that are fun, you know. And occasionally you know a night out, you know if it's a Wednesday night, like I shut down at six o'clock and we're out to dinner or whatever it may be. So I think every day something, five minutes, 10 minutes, and then a day in the week is really appropriate.

John McClain: 47:41

And just keep trying until you find out what feels right for you right. Because, you might try something that your friend or your relative is doing that doesn't feel quite right for you and I don't know. Sometimes just closing my eyes at my computer and breathing for 60 seconds feels great.

John McClain: 48:00

Knowing that that's my 60 seconds, so yeah, right, but it's so funny you mentioned sundays because sundays I don't know. Sundays are very special to me because I I tend to not want to do anything on sundays. I tend to not want to. I don't want to even get out on my pjs on sundays because I know, I know on sundays I'm not going to hear typically from my team members unless it's an emergency. I'm not going to hear, of course, from clients, not going to get bombarded with emails about you know, this, that and the other vendor.

John McClain: 48:29

And so I know Sundays are great, I can lounge around, we can cook breakfast, you know have Sundays, and so for me Sundays, the whole day tends to feel almost therapeutic for me on Sunday. So I get what you're saying there and if you can find that special it doesn't have to be a day, I find, but if you can find a special moment, you can start your day slowly, end your day slowly. But I think that just carving out that time for yourself, and it seems impossible until you do it, it seems impossible to find it until you just do it and then you then suddenly it becomes a part of your routine and then it's just there and if you need to do you think putting it on your calendar is helpful? I know it sounds rigid to do that, but do you find if that's something that people will need to do to just to just do it?

Lori Miller: 49:15

I think some people absolutely, it's like either in the notes or on the calendar, or you know, just, I used to have, we used to have the big calendars, nice to have stickies, and it would have like a little person like jumping rope or bicycle riding or you know. It just be like a fun reminder, whatever it takes for you to you know, for not you specifically, but for you know to do. You know everybody does something fun or different.

John McClain: 49:41

I agree. No, it's great. It's such a important topic to discuss. Have we missed anything today that you would like for everybody to know before we wrap up the conversation? I think this is such great information for everybody to be aware of. I want everybody to probably listen to this again If you're on the verge of burnout or even just stressed out. This is just such great knowledge to know, and if is there anything else you wanted to add to the conversation, lori, before we wrap everything up.

Lori Miller: 50:09

No, I think this was great. Yeah, I mean you know it's a great topic. It was fun to do with you, you know, and I think there's important tidbits for people. And especially, you know it's funny because you and I both have had experience with the anxiety and we both use the same sort of tools, so which we didn't know before this right.

John McClain: 50:31

No.

Lori Miller: 50:31

So, yeah, I think it's great information for people.

John McClain: 50:36

And again, don't be embarrassed, don't be afraid. Just acknowledge it and seek help as you need to, and that help can start small, at home, and then if you need to seek professional help, that is there as well. And speaking of looking for help, lori, you offer services for other people, for designers and specifically who need that, so can you talk about what services you offer, and then I think you have a special for everybody that you're listening.

Lori Miller: 51:03

I do. So you know nutrition is a big part of our health as well, and how many of us go through the days without eating. So I do have a certificate in nutrition for mental health. So in a 10 week package, which would be 10 sessions, doesn't have to be weekly, let's not stress, but in 10 sessions, you know we can go through. You know how to eat healthier, what to do with your body, mindfulness where were you stressed? How can we help? How can we, you know, just get you back on track and loving what you do, because creativity is also a part of relaxation, so it shouldn't, you know, have to be stressful. So for, you know, 10 sessions, a $500 discount. Call me and we can set something up. If you're in New York, I can take insurance. That's a big deal. So if anybody needs help in New York we are licensed for in mental health for that.

John McClain: 51:57

I love that. And where can they find you? Can you give them your website and your social information? Social media?

Lori Miller: 52:03

Sure, so I'm at lgcinteriodesign. Lgc is Lori Girl Creations, so that was my nickname. So if you can't find me at LGC, lori Girl is always a. It's a key. And I'm also lgcinteriodesign on my website as as well, so feel free to reach out great well, this has been such a wonderful, timely, helpful conversation, I feel better I feel relaxed.

John McClain: 52:28

I hope everyone listening does as well, and I hope that they can take this information and apply it to their own lives and check lori out for any other helpful tips that you can find out on her website and take advantage of her offer as well. Lori, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it.

Lori Miller: 52:46

Likewise, have a good one.

John McClain: 52:48

Thank you Bye. Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the Designer Within podcast. It means the world to me. If you're ready to dive deeper into the topics that we've discussed here, be sure to check out my online coaching and courses program, DesignSuccessAcademycom. Here I will teach you everything you need to know to run your interior design business, from starting the project all the way to the end, including marketing and pricing your services for profit. And for more information on this podcast, including how to be a guest or my design services in general, go to johnmcclainco. That's johnmcclainco. See you soon, friend.